The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!


#181

Steve, I may be wrong, but I don’t think DNA has anything to do with the Spirit. From what I understand it is not a part of our physical make up yet it is at the core of every human being as John says, " and without Him(the Word) nothing was made that was made." But whatever the case may be, one still cannot blame Adam and Eve. According to Genesis 4:25, Adam and Eve were bearing seeds of God, Abel and Seth.

Randy, I read the article “Where did Satan’s first desire for evil come from?” I have to say that I don’t agree with it. As I mentioned to Steve, we all have our own minds to think what we want to think. If someone smacks another, as in the example of M&M’s wife, that person may either forgive and forget or brew on thoughts of hate and revenge. It is their choice.


#182

Steve, I may be wrong, but I don’t think DNA has anything to do with the Spirit. From what I understand it is not a part of our physical make up yet it is at the core of every human being as John says, " and without Him(the Word) nothing was made that was made." But whatever the case may be, one still cannot blame Adam and Eve. According to Genesis 4:25, Adam and Eve were bearing seeds of God, Abel and Seth.

Yes i agree DNA has nothing to do with the Spirit. OK so if we cannot blame Adam and Eve then who is to blame? Or is anyone to blame?


#183

Steve, We all have our different opinions on who is to blame, but honestly, I’ve come to the conclusion that I have only to look in the mirror and I see myself as the cause of the problem. This seems to be the last place that anyone wants to look, but therein lies my answer.


#184

LLC, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head!


#185

Steve,

God created Satan, Adam, and Eve by the overflow of His grace. We know it’s grace because you can’t deserve to be created. Grace is what sustained their hearts. With God’s grace they wanted to love God above all else. That is to say, they desired nothing but God. For justifiable reasons only known to Him, God removed His grace from their hearts. As a result they no longer had a desire to love God above all else. They desired to rebel and sin. That is to say, they wanted to rebel against God and chose to. They are therefore responsible for their evil rebellion. God doesn’t directly cause evil but permits it. According to Jonathan Edwards:

Edwards says God is:

See: Edwards, “Concerning the Divine Decrees,” 534. and Edwards, “Freedom of the Will” 399.

God has established a world in which evil comes to pass by His permission not His positive agency. Edwards uses an analogy of how the sun brings about light and warmth by it’s essential nature, but brings about cold and dark by dropping below the horizon. Evil is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of God but arises from the withholding of His action and energy. It’s like when Joseph was sold into slavery. What they meant for evil God meant for good - the saving of many lives. This parallels the crucifixion when God allowed evil agents to have their way with Christ for the salvation of the world. In one sense God wasn’t pleased when innocent Christ was murdered. God doesn’t delight in torture and evil in and of itself. What He was pleased in was what Christ accomplished on the cross is showing love and grace to sinners. This is why often in the Bible God will use evil to judge His people and then turn around and judge those who committed the evil against His people. God’s holy intentions and justifiable reasons in permitting the evil were good. Man’s intentions in committing the sinful acts were evil. One act - two intentions. Compatible in all things. I have surrendered to God’s control over my life. I trust God and try to do mercy and justice the best I can as I walk in humility with Him. I have hit bottom many times in the shattering of my ego. People who despise God refuse to surrender to His control and let Him have their way with them. They hate God because they want control over life with their so called autonomous freedom. This is an illusion. Once the illusion is broken we come to depend on God and His power. I am powerless over the past and future but it is His love that motivates as I seek to glorify Him in being kind and loving others.

The true question is forgotten: “Have I left all to follow Him?” The important thing is whether we are letting God have His own way with us, following where He leads, learning the lessons He gives us. ~~ George MacDonald

“Jesus tells us we must leave the self altogether-yield it, deny it, refuse it, lose it. Thus only shall we save it… The self is given us that we may sacrifice it. It is ours in order that we, like Christ, may have something to offer- not that we should torment it, but that we should deny it; not that we should cross it, but that we should abandon it utterly.” ― George MacDonald

To be right with God is to be right with the universe; one with the power, the love, the will of the mighty Father, the cherisher of joy, the lord of laughter, whose are all glories, all hopes, who loves everything, and hates nothing but selfishness, which he will not have in His kingdom. ~~ George MacDonald


#186

If what a “person” desires is conditional on what God makes the “person” desire – a process you describe as God either offering a person grace or not offering grace – then the “person” didn’t choose anything. The “person” would merely be reacting, not acting.


#187

Free will is being able to choose. If there’s no reason or desire behind our decisions then they can’t be made. Moreover, without a desire or inclination our choices have no moral significance and cannot be judged good or evil. Motives count too. It doesn’t make us robots to love from the heart. It’s about having a changed heart and new nature. Not exercising a mythological autonomous freedom. Our choices will be self-determined in that they are determined by something within and not external factors. Example: In heaven we will be confirmed in grace. All sinful desires are gone. We will choose what we want with all our hearts - love God and each other without sin forever and ever. We will be like God in that it will be impossible for us to sin.


#188

If another being is choosing what we desire – to sin or not sin – for us, then “our” choices are not actually ours.

If God chooses who “loves from the heart” and who does not, then we are robots.

It looks like Calvinism is your latest fad.


#189

Whatever qaz. Continue in your illusion of autonomy. When you stop hating God and His children you will be surrendered under His Kingship with complete abandonment.


#190

:laughing:

I wouldn’t be surprised if in two weeks you switched your latest fad to hardline arminianism.


#191

Here’s surrender:

Acceptance

“And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today.
When I am disturbed,
It is because I find some person, place, thing, situation –
Some fact of my life – unacceptable to me,
And I can find no serenity until I accept
That person, place, thing, or situation
As being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God’s world by mistake.
Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober;
Unless I accept life completely on life’s terms,
I cannot be happy.
I need to concentrate not so much
On what needs to be changed in the world
As on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.”

Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th Edition p. 417


#192

From the Christian Universalist Gerry Beauchmin:

Who is in control here? Man or God? Whose will prevails…What has happened to GOD? Our tradition has pawned His power off to man in the myth of “free” will. - Hope Beyond Hell pp. 40-41


#193

Here you go qaz. Here’s a book on spirituality and the twelve steps using all the major religions of the world by Rami Shapiro:

The best book on surrender I’ve found:


#194

Here’s my book on spiritual warfare called, “The Catholic Warrior”:

As the Catholic Franciscan Friar, Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel states in his book -

“There Are No Accidents, In all Things Trust In God.”

This was after a car wreck he was in.


#195

Yes i agree DNA has nothing to do with the Spirit. OK so if we cannot blame Adam and Eve then who is to blame? Or is anyone to blame?

Steve, We all have our different opinions on who is to blame, but honestly, I’ve come to the conclusion that I have only to look in the mirror and I see myself as the cause of the problem. This seems to be the last place that anyone wants to look, but therein lies my answer.

One of the reasons i think Christian Universalism could be true is that although Adam and Eve had free will to make their choices , it was God who put their desires in them and allowed Satan to test them. So God shares the responsibility because learning through experience about good and evil is necessary for us to eventually be conformed into his likeness. To me one of the keys of the story of life is the verse “The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil” Gen 3.22


#196

Wait, is he Cole? I always thought he was, but then came across some stuff that made me think otherwise. I know Cole constantly flipped every weeks to a new theology.


#197

As a public service, I present these 10 ministers - so folks needing a new theology, can choose one :wink:


#198

For Gabe and qaz for trying to bring up my past struggles with the intent to abuse me in public:


#199

Steve, do you think it is possible that God gave them the ability to control their desires, and the freedom to exercise that ability, and they simply chose to disobey? For the same reasons we do?

I get nervous when anyone ascribes evil intent or responsibility for evil to God; that is a fairly radical view of the his goodness and wisdom, and disruptive to the biblical narrative, as well as not comporting well with the Father who Jesus revealed to us.

I do think that ‘looking in the mirror’ is the best clue to the source of evil.


#200

Steve, do you think it is possible that God gave them the ability to control their desires, and the freedom to exercise that ability, and they simply chose to disobey? For the same reasons we do?

I get nervous when anyone ascribes evil intent or responsibility for evil to God; that is a fairly radical view of the his goodness and wisdom, and disruptive to the biblical narrative, as well as not comporting well with the Father who Jesus revealed to us.

Dave, To me one of the keys is evil intent so “evil” in the hands of humans is sinful without a doubt. But sin is defined as “missing the mark” and the mark is God’s will, correct? So if it’s God’s will that the best thing for mankind is to learn “evil” through experiencing it, is it so radical to consider the possibility that God knows that we have to go through hell to be ready for heaven?
The other possibility which Paidion has brought up is that God meant for us to experience evil after we were mature enough to handle it but Adam & Eve spoiled his plans. But was God forced to curse Eve and curse the ground with thorns and thistles or could he have just forgiven them for their transgressions and simply let them mature first? Another thing to remember is that Jesus sacrifice was determined before the foundation of the world so clearly God knew what the scenario would be.