I don’t believe God smacks people but this is what is known as a categorical error. God is in a category all by Himself. He cannot be compared to creation or His creatures. There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. God is self-sufficient ~ we are not, God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge ~ we are not; just to name a couple. He sees all of reality past present and future. Grace is unmerited favor and never owed by God to a rebel God hater who doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. God owes us nothing. Not even an explanation as to why. Logical explanations are infinite in number anyway. Especially when we are dealing with a Being who is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. We are finite and He is infinite. The finite cannot fully grasp the infinite. Indeed, the secret things belong to the Lord:
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever ~~ Deut. 29:29
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways ~~ Romans:11-33
I simply try to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and trust God and do mercy and justice:
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~~ Micah 6:8
God’s secret or sovereign will is His business alone. As God He has rights and prerogatives that His creatures don’t. He will have mercy on whom He pleases and whom He pleases He hardens by withholding mercy. His mercy endures forever for His children.
Randy, thanks for the info. Although it is debated by some, I do believe the Bible presents different accounts of creation. However, to me, there are actually three creation accounts. As qaz has mentioned, I think the author of the second version saw a truth of life and wrote it down in story form. I agree with Davo that there probably is some history behind it. One such possibility is that of a culture clash. The ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, shepherds and farmers, whose way of life centered around family, clans and tribes. It was also hard work compared to the city life that may have been present in the area at the time. The power structures of these two lifestyles are very different. Whatever the case, it just seems odd to me to suggest that God did not restore Adam and Eve after the fall, when there are plenty of verses that say otherwise.
Steve, I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created. The Bible is basically telling us that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. That’s as far as it goes for me, and I accept that. So to answer you question, Eve was a human being; and as humans,we all have our own minds to think what we want to think.
OK but to me the main issue is not whether the story or account is literal or figurative but about these desires that erupted in Eve upon Satan’s temptations, were they already in her. It seems to me that they were in her and if so did she have the practical ability to resist. So then Adam could have refused too and it is because of him that sin came into the world, but he and Eve had the same DNA markers i believe.
LLC wrote:
I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created.
I’m of the same opinion, though I don’t discount historicity in the sense that the line between the literal and the legend is more than a little undefined. I view Adam as taken/chosen by God “from the dust of the earth” i.e., humanity, and placed by God as Priest in the garden paradise to serve Him. I see Adam in this sense as proto-Israel, i.e., he is Israel personified… Jesus came as true Israel the last Adam etc.
One thing to also consider is that it seems that Jesus accepted the creation story as literal since he referred to Adam and Abel as if they were literal people.
Steve, I may be wrong, but I don’t think DNA has anything to do with the Spirit. From what I understand it is not a part of our physical make up yet it is at the core of every human being as John says, " and without Him(the Word) nothing was made that was made." But whatever the case may be, one still cannot blame Adam and Eve. According to Genesis 4:25, Adam and Eve were bearing seeds of God, Abel and Seth.
Randy, I read the article “Where did Satan’s first desire for evil come from?” I have to say that I don’t agree with it. As I mentioned to Steve, we all have our own minds to think what we want to think. If someone smacks another, as in the example of M&M’s wife, that person may either forgive and forget or brew on thoughts of hate and revenge. It is their choice.
Steve, I may be wrong, but I don’t think DNA has anything to do with the Spirit. From what I understand it is not a part of our physical make up yet it is at the core of every human being as John says, " and without Him(the Word) nothing was made that was made." But whatever the case may be, one still cannot blame Adam and Eve. According to Genesis 4:25, Adam and Eve were bearing seeds of God, Abel and Seth.
Yes i agree DNA has nothing to do with the Spirit. OK so if we cannot blame Adam and Eve then who is to blame? Or is anyone to blame?
Steve, We all have our different opinions on who is to blame, but honestly, I’ve come to the conclusion that I have only to look in the mirror and I see myself as the cause of the problem. This seems to be the last place that anyone wants to look, but therein lies my answer.
God created Satan, Adam, and Eve by the overflow of His grace. We know it’s grace because you can’t deserve to be created. Grace is what sustained their hearts. With God’s grace they wanted to love God above all else. That is to say, they desired nothing but God. For justifiable reasons only known to Him, God removed His grace from their hearts. As a result they no longer had a desire to love God above all else. They desired to rebel and sin. That is to say, they wanted to rebel against God and chose to. They are therefore responsible for their evil rebellion. God doesn’t directly cause evil but permits it. According to Jonathan Edwards:
Edwards says God is:
See: Edwards, “Concerning the Divine Decrees,” 534. and Edwards, “Freedom of the Will” 399.
God has established a world in which evil comes to pass by His permission not His positive agency. Edwards uses an analogy of how the sun brings about light and warmth by it’s essential nature, but brings about cold and dark by dropping below the horizon. Evil is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of God but arises from the withholding of His action and energy. It’s like when Joseph was sold into slavery. What they meant for evil God meant for good - the saving of many lives. This parallels the crucifixion when God allowed evil agents to have their way with Christ for the salvation of the world. In one sense God wasn’t pleased when innocent Christ was murdered. God doesn’t delight in torture and evil in and of itself. What He was pleased in was what Christ accomplished on the cross is showing love and grace to sinners. This is why often in the Bible God will use evil to judge His people and then turn around and judge those who committed the evil against His people. God’s holy intentions and justifiable reasons in permitting the evil were good. Man’s intentions in committing the sinful acts were evil. One act - two intentions. Compatible in all things. I have surrendered to God’s control over my life. I trust God and try to do mercy and justice the best I can as I walk in humility with Him. I have hit bottom many times in the shattering of my ego. People who despise God refuse to surrender to His control and let Him have their way with them. They hate God because they want control over life with their so called autonomous freedom. This is an illusion. Once the illusion is broken we come to depend on God and His power. I am powerless over the past and future but it is His love that motivates as I seek to glorify Him in being kind and loving others.
The true question is forgotten: “Have I left all to follow Him?” The important thing is whether we are letting God have His own way with us, following where He leads, learning the lessons He gives us. ~~ George MacDonald
“Jesus tells us we must leave the self altogether-yield it, deny it, refuse it, lose it. Thus only shall we save it… The self is given us that we may sacrifice it. It is ours in order that we, like Christ, may have something to offer- not that we should torment it, but that we should deny it; not that we should cross it, but that we should abandon it utterly.” ― George MacDonald
To be right with God is to be right with the universe; one with the power, the love, the will of the mighty Father, the cherisher of joy, the lord of laughter, whose are all glories, all hopes, who loves everything, and hates nothing but selfishness, which he will not have in His kingdom. ~~ George MacDonald
Free will is being able to choose. If there’s no reason or desire behind our decisions then they can’t be made. Moreover, without a desire or inclination our choices have no moral significance and cannot be judged good or evil. Motives count too. It doesn’t make us robots to love from the heart. It’s about having a changed heart and new nature. Not exercising a mythological autonomous freedom. Our choices will be self-determined in that they are determined by something within and not external factors. Example: In heaven we will be confirmed in grace. All sinful desires are gone. We will choose what we want with all our hearts - love God and each other without sin forever and ever. We will be like God in that it will be impossible for us to sin.
Whatever qaz. Continue in your illusion of autonomy. When you stop hating God and His children you will be surrendered under His Kingship with complete abandonment.
“And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today.
When I am disturbed,
It is because I find some person, place, thing, situation –
Some fact of my life – unacceptable to me,
And I can find no serenity until I accept
That person, place, thing, or situation
As being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God’s world by mistake.
Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober;
Unless I accept life completely on life’s terms,
I cannot be happy.
I need to concentrate not so much
On what needs to be changed in the world
As on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.”
Who is in control here? Man or God? Whose will prevails…What has happened to GOD? Our tradition has pawned His power off to man in the myth of “free” will. - Hope Beyond Hell pp. 40-41
Yes i agree DNA has nothing to do with the Spirit. OK so if we cannot blame Adam and Eve then who is to blame? Or is anyone to blame?
Steve, We all have our different opinions on who is to blame, but honestly, I’ve come to the conclusion that I have only to look in the mirror and I see myself as the cause of the problem. This seems to be the last place that anyone wants to look, but therein lies my answer.
One of the reasons i think Christian Universalism could be true is that although Adam and Eve had free will to make their choices , it was God who put their desires in them and allowed Satan to test them. So God shares the responsibility because learning through experience about good and evil is necessary for us to eventually be conformed into his likeness. To me one of the keys of the story of life is the verse “The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil” Gen 3.22
Wait, is he Cole? I always thought he was, but then came across some stuff that made me think otherwise. I know Cole constantly flipped every weeks to a new theology.
