The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God won't violate human 'free will'

You then appear to argue that everything that is not definitionally a contradiction in terms must exist. So is my “giant most maximal unicorn” such a ‘logical incongruity’?

No, I don’t think so.

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Ah, I’m glad to know that such a non-contradictory’ super unicorn must exist :wink:

I’m lost. I didn’t dispute your reasoning (your “because”). Even on your own premise, if God already knows or has declared that person’s future choice with certainty, it is then still true that that person can now make no other choice (i.e. any other choice at that point is a reality not “possible”).

And of course, when you say God knows future free choices, because the person “haschosen it, many would perceive it is not actually a past tense reality at that time, but actually an event that has not yet happened or entered existence, and thus is not available to be witnessed.

God does not know one’s choice until one makes it. If that’s the case, then one is still free to make what choice one wishes–a truly contingent event.

Again, we are appealing to two modes here–a temporal one and a logical or causal one. The temporal one (God’s knowing what one will do before it occurs) is a consequence of the logical or causal one (one’s choice that logically or causally provides God with information about that choice). So, one can truly choose freely and whatever one chooses will be foreknown by God.

This thought occurred to me. Perhaps God doesn’t know exactly, how his foreknowledge works. That’s why he invented mankind. And they can develop the disciplines, of theology and philosophy. And perhaps the theologians and philosophers can help God out. He might even be reading these forum posts, to figure things out. Food for fodder. :crazy_face:

Footnote: I used to play the academic game, of theology, philosophy and science. But now I’m more concerned with wisdom. Not only from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, saints and mystics. But also from the Native American, Buddhist, Yogic, Spiritual Healing and Ancient Healing Modality (i.e. homeopathy, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda) traditions. In the absence of a cure or preventative, from the world’s medical and scientific communities…philosophical logic won’t save me, from the current pandemic - but wisdom just might do the trick. :crazy_face:

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How could God regret yet not regret at the same time ? How could God for tell that king Cyrus would perform all his good pleasure even before he was born, if God didn’t know before hand the intentions of his heart and how he/ Cyrus would choose to act in accordance with Gods will ? How did God make known to Christ, peters heart condition, before Peter even knew it himself by foretelling his denial ? How did Jesus know before the last supper event that Judas was going to betray him, even before Judas knew it himself ? etc …etc …

An analogy I often imagine to myself is
like that of watching a pre-recorded film,
you still hide, laugh, jump and cry at all
the parts you know are coming. [ie] just because one knows it’s coming doesn’t
Stop heart felt emotions from arising.
To my reasoning It is possible that God can still regret something even though he knew
or had some kind of control over what would happen. [ie] if a war General knew
that he had to sacrifice ten thousand men, to gain his objective for the greater purpose / outcome of the war, he would do it. Those soldiers would still be acting on their own free will yet under the greater will and plan of their general.That general would live by a decision that he would make a thousand times over [ie] never regret it. But at the same time regret the results of his decision a thousand times over, even though the greater plan had to be served.

It seems to me that man has free will, yet
mans free will comes under the guidance
and purposes of Gods greater will and plan, and in so doing God can know the intentions of mans heart even before man knows it himself, if thats what he so chooses to focus his attention on in order to achieve his greater purposes…yet I’m not sure he always chooses to on a all in all scale at every given moment.

Just my thoughts.

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That’s an excellent thought. Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times so it was not just knowing the intention of Peter’ heart but knowing future events. Yet i agree that God may not focus on things not connected to his overall purposes. Also as you said God’s purposes trump man’s free will so i would say we have a limited free will always subject to God’s purposes.

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That is and always has been the bottom line, period!

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Yes, my impression is that some Biblical writers see God knowing what will happen precisely because they see God as in “control” of choices so that they conform to “God’s will” and "in accordance with God’s will. I.e. they see God as sovereign in determining events.

But then, saying still that “man has free will” in that case seems problematic, in that this can’t then mean the power of contrary choice, or ‘free will’ in a libertarian sense.

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Right! So, if as you say, “God does not know one’s choice until you make it,” and then it “causally” provides God with information to observe, then if it’s a future choice that one has not even weighed yet, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s not available to be witnessed, or to provide God with information on what “has been chosen.” For it has not yet even been freely considered, much less chosen.

Bob, not to sure what your saying here. Are you implying that it would be nonsensical to say man has free will, inside that of Gods greater will and purposes ?

I’m saying that if God knows future ‘choices’ because God “controls” choices to insure that they “accord” with what God has willed and planned, then insisting that such choices still operate with a ‘free will,’ understands ‘freedom’ differently than most do.

E.g. my Calvinist professors told be that God sovereignly determines everything, but that choices remain ‘free.’ But defining ‘free’ simply as ‘wanting’ to make choices with the compelling motives that God placed in a person always seemed weird to me.

No, there is a temporal and a logical or causal mode that should be kept straight in this explanation. According to the explanation I expressed, God’s foreknowledge precedes our choices. He knows about our choices before we make them. That’s the temporal mode. But our choices logically or causally precede His foreknowledge of our choices, such that He knows of our choices before they actually occur in our time. For example, our choices made at time t provide information at times earlier than time t about what was chosen, and that information causes His foreknowledge of our choices. That’s the logical or causal mode.

That allows total freedom of choices on our part and total foreknowledge of our choices on God’s part.

The biggest question is how this is done. I offered a view that assumes God’s ability to view all times at once and at any time. Is that the answer? Who knows? But it is not far-fetched to assume that it is possible in an eternal being who existed without the universe, as well as with the universe after He created it and all of its dimensions, including the time dimension. As such, it does not seem that outlandish to me, an agnostic, that He could experience the time dimension in a very different way than we do.

But our not knowing how it’s done does not mean that it cannot be done. Certainly, the syllogism I presented does not depend on any particular mode of God’s gaining knowledge of our choices. It simply shows there is nothing logically preventing our choices from being freely made even if those choices are foreknown. And we know from many Bible verses that God knows what’s in our hearts and in our thoughts. He knows our intentions. So, however He knows them, He knows them, and that could easily lead to His foreknowledge of our freely made choices yet to be made.

True, that! :+1:

Now I know the REAL reason, that Judas betrayed Christ. :crazy_face:

This appears to be double talk. You answer one difficulty by asserting, “God does not know one’s choices Until he makes it.” Then you answer problems with that, by asserting, “God knows our choices before we make them.” This appears tantamount to asserting A and not A. (see my P.S.)

One can posit anything (e.g. time or logic don’t apply for ‘God’)! It appears that you want to posit that God can know choices which have not yet even been weighed by free choice makers who retain the power of contrary choice. So you then assert that it makes sense to posit that time and sequence is irrelevant here, since it’s logical that God knows all choices that will be made well before the time when that choice is even known to the free choice-maker. Whether this is “far-fetched” depends on the beholder. Many would “assume” this appears deeply illogical.

P.S. If God has known and perhaps declared in 4000 BC what you Lancia “has chosen” in 2020 (say, option A), way before you even cogitate on that choice in your actual experience, it is now in one sense a fait accompli. Thus to insist that you retain the power of a contrary choice over weighing that decision in the present sounds bizarre. For it is now impossible for you not to conform to what God has declared, and you cannot ever then choose option B.

Again, you continue to confuse the temporal and causal modes inherent in the model I described.

“God knows our choices before we make them” is from the temporal mode.

“God does not know one’s choices Until he makes it” is from the causal mode.

It’s not double talk.

In the model I described, if God foreknew and declared in 4000 BC that I will freely choose A in 2020, that would mean He had evidence, by observing events in 2020 from any earlier time including 4000 BC, that I will choose A in 2020 because I indeed freely chose A in 2020.

If I had instead freely chosen B in 2020, then that would have causally determined His foreknowledge of that event from His temporally-distant, past vantage point and thus my freely choosing B would be part of His foreknowledge of my freely made choice in 2020.

What confusion? I recognized long ago that you assert God foreknows future free choices by observing them before they happen. I’m not seeing how repeating that answers any contentions I offered above.

If you weren’t confusing the temporal and causal modes you wouldn’t have said this.

I explained the basis of those seemingly contradictory statements in my last post.

"God knows our choices before we make them” applies to the temporal mode.

“God does not know our choices until we make them” applies to the causal mode.