The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God's love for the non-elects

This is the topic that the extremely popular Calvinist preacher John Marc Arthur went into.
gty.org/Resources/Articles/2473

What are your thoughts on that?

In the article John writes:
“Clearly God does love even those who spurn His tender mercy, but it is a different quality of love, and different in degree from His love for His own.”

I underlined “who spurn His tender mercy” because he is misrepresenting the non-elect. The non-elect, according to Calvinist doctrine, do not “spurn His tender mercy”; rather, they are not elected to recieve His tender mercy. Whatever way one twists it, Calvinism pictures God as tyranical. And Arminianism presents God as weak, powerless to save many, if not most, whom He loves! In explaining the difference between Calvinism, Arminianism, and UR I use the following 4 statements about God:

  1. God is Sovereign over all.
  2. God is Love to all.
  3. God is Savior of all.
  4. God is Judge over all.

Calvinism affirms 1) God is Sovereign over all, and believes that 4) God’s judgment results certainly in some being lost, thus it ultimately denies 2) and 3).
Arminianism affirms 2) God is Love to all, and believes that 4) God’s judgment results certainly in some being lost, thus it ultimately denies 1) and 3).
UR affirms 1, 2, and 3 because it believes that God’s judgment results in reconciliation through whatever form of chastizement is necessary.

If one believes both 1 and 2, the 3 is the natural outcome. So to me UR is the most “Biblical” and the most “logical”.

You nailed it, Sherman!

Hallo Sohn des Lothar!

This guy MacArthur is, like all Calvinists, a duplicitous, insincere, gullible fraud. I particularly like the name of his website - “Grace to You”. Which should of course read “No Grace to You, you Evil Reprobate.”

I read the article you linked to. It contains these bald lies:

Of course it does, John. Hear the Calvinist at prayer: Thank you, God, for being so merciful, good and loving that you are going to burn all your unchosen ones in hell for all eternity.

Shove that in your Calvinist pipe and smoke it, matey.

What absolute bollocks. More disgusting Calvinist lies. Under Calvin’s twisted, evil belief, God doesn’t ‘invite’ anyone to repent. He makes them repent. Calvinists call it ‘irresistible grace’. Grace! Ha!

Too right it’s a “different quality of love”, John. So different that it is, in fact, hatred. As a way more godly person than you has said (and I quote from memory) “it is no more coherent to say that God loves the reprobate in hell than to say that he hates the elect in heaven”. That is the bald truth of your despicable Calvinist theology. Your God, John is an evil, capricious sadist who makes Pol Pot look like Mother Theresa. You can take that fictional monster and shove him up your Calvinist fundament.

And please, people, before somebody takes me to task for my anger, gets on my case about “being nice to Calvinists”, think again about what’s being said here. And what’s being said here is that someone you love - your brother, your daughter, your mother - is going to burn in hell forever because God, in his great mercy, love and wisdom, chooses to burn them. Hallelujah!

Wow Johny you seem to be even more enraged against Calvinism than I am. I have always doubted that such a thing could be possible :wink:

You’re entirely right that such Calvinist talk about love is deceiful.

But I want to be charitable to MacArthur and consider this a self-deception.

I cannot withstand the (irrestible) temptation to invite you to comment on my posts about Calvinism:
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/category/calvinism/

You inspired me to write a new post where I will argue that not only does God** not **love the non-elects, but he has actualy hated them before the foundation of the world rather than merely being callous towards them.
That said, I am aware that a small number of Calvinists believe in the anihilation of the “wicked”.
It might be fairer to say that he is indifferent in that case.
I must think twice about it.

Sherman: I disagree with your criticism of Arminianism. If libertarian free will is required for true love, there might be countless individuals that God cannot save because he cannot manipulate them into loving Him.
This has nothing to do with weakness.

Best wishes!

Hi Lotharson

Oh yeah, I am enraged against Calvinism. It is an evil, false, blasphemous carbuncle on the face of Christianity. It is a bigger deterrent to evangelism than all the hypocritical deceptions of Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker and all those other TV evangelist charlatans put together. It is a bigger turn off to Christian truth than even the worst case scenarios of the problem of evil - ancephalic babies pale into meaningless insignificance against the true iniquity of Calvinist predestination.

Why should I be charitable to MacArthur? Why should I offer a shred of Christian charity to somebody who believes that God chose to damn my brother or my wife to eternal torture before they were born - while he, of course, was ‘chosen’ to be elect? Well ain’t he the lucky one?

No offence to you, of course, my friend :smiley: . I’m just venting my spleen!

Cheers

Johnny

(off subject - is spleen in Haggis also?)

:laughing:

Sorry, Dave. I got a bit carried away there.

Did I mention that I’m not overly keen on Calvinism?

J

No - you’re on a good roll, I did in fact pick up on the subtleties of the argument :laughing:

But the haggis thing just won’t let me alone - I looked it up - sorry for the intrusion.

Johny, I really think that Calvinism is the greatest blasphemy on earth.

As you correctly mentionned, no other teaching is more offensive to the character of God.

Dave - oh good, because I was worried my arguments against Calvinism were a bit too subtle for the layman :laughing: . Clearly you’re no layman :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: .

Lotharson - I’m with you all the way. I’ve had my bottom kicked lots of times on this forum for being mean to Calvinists. But what I’m against is Calvinism. The poor wretches who believe it are, iMHO, as much victims as are anybody who has been seduced by an evil cult. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people, or weak people - it just means they’ve been unlucky in their life experiences. God will bring them into the light, sooner or later, I know that. He’s done that for lots of people on this forum - proof positive a) that God exists; and b) that he isn’t a Calvinist :laughing: .

Footnote:

Apparently haggis isn’t what I said it was before. Apparently haggis is a kind of stuffed black pudding eaten by the Scots and considered by them to be not only a delicacy but fit for human consumption. The minced heart, liver and lungs of a sheep, calf, or other animals’ inner organs are mixed with oatmeal, sealed and boiled in maw in the sheep’s intestinal stomach-bag and… Excuse me a minute. Ed

:smiley:

:laughing: You’re 'scused…

Johnny, because we are all in need of mercy and grace – and the more deceived, the more they need it. God alone is able to judge the hearts and minds of men, so let us leave room for the vengeance of God.

Sonia

Of course, Sonia :blush: . Mr MacArthur is in no more or less need of God’s mercy and grace than I am - just applied a little differently, perhaps? :smiley:

You know me I was exaggerating to make the point. Employing mythical truth if you like :laughing: .

J