I remember praying a specific prayer that I wanted Truth at all cost and wanted to know Him more than anything. This is were I ended up. I was earnest and sincere. If He led me here or allowed me to be decieved then I (we) really have a problem.
Hey, Nimble,
I suspect a lot of us here have prayed that prayer–and still are. The more I know Him, it seems, the bigger and better He gets. If He hides things for a season, it’s for a good reason–the Maker knows what He’s about, and I’m glad now that the truth of UR was hidden from me for so long. I wasn’t ready for it sooner.
There’s a lot of prayers one can pray, and the Lord of all is faithful to answer:
“Lord, teach me humility.”
“Lord, teach me to be a servant.”
“Lord, teach me to love like you love.”
“Lord, help me to be more patient.”
“Lord, I never want to grow complacent toward You–make my life one that keeps me always seeking you more.”
“Lord, I don’t want to walk the broad road, lead me in the narrow way, even if it’s hard.”
But it’s not all as fun as getting whalloped over the head with UR … learning humility means getting your nose rubbed in your mistakes, being a servant means putting others first and having your good deeds taken for granted, Loving like God means loving without return and laying down your life for those who don’t deserve it, learning patience means you get to have lots of opportunities to practice your patience so it can grow …
No pain, no gain. 
But it’s all good!
Sonia
That’s true. But what we consider as being ‘teachable’ and what God considers (and readies) as teachable are two different things.
“I’m teachable.” Usually means - I’ll accept anything that lines up with my presuppositions and resist anything else. So a presupposition that says God will torment people for eternity will exclude the possibility of a greater salvation, and even go so far as to exclude scripture that more then hints at that possibility. One is, at that point, not teachable.
So…do you realize you’re accusing me of lying?
But perhaps that is an uncharitable assumption–I really haven’t percieved you to be that way. I’ll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you just didn’t understand what I said. (Hmm…and if you can’t understand what I say, what reason would I have to give any credence to your ‘understanding’ of Paul–whom we are told “writes things which are difficult to understand”?)
Or the other option … it’s quite possible that I was unclear in my wording and it was my fault you misunderstood me. 
Let’s go with that one.
I think what you mean to say is that you have tried to show me how what I believe is out of context, and I have disagreed with your interpretation. In fact, I have found your interpretation to be out of context. And then, because I disagree with you, you accuse me of being ‘unteachable’ 
--is that an attempt to ‘scare’ or intimidate me into doubting my faith? (Since, obviously!, you must be correct, and I** must** be incorrect. 
)
True story … I knew a fellow once who asked a girl out. She said ‘No way!’ so he told her that “the Bible said” she had to submit to him! 
The poor girl was quite unteachable…
Did you ever consider that you might be the one with the ‘teachability’ issue?.. 
(Honestly now, do you really think it’s productive to fling accusations back and forth? Yipee! I feel like a kid again!)
But, seriously now …
Sir, you may well regard me as unteachable. You have no claim on me that I should heed your teaching. Who are you who sets himself as judge over me? Who do you claim to be, that I should listen to your pronouncements of the “correct” meanings of scripture? I don’t know you, “But I know whom I have believed” and (whether you believe it or not) it is my heart’s desire to learn from the One who made me, loves me, and has called me to Himself. Before Him alone I stand or fall, as Paul says, and I wholeheartedly trust Him to do with me as He will.
Blessings to you, and may the Lord bring us all nearer to Himself and each other in knowledge of the truth,
Sonia
We pray the same for you, too, A. 
Most of us who were already Christian came to universalism from either Arm or Calv Christianity–and the remainder (like myself) came from a mixed appreciation of both schools of thought. I don’t think any of us started off as universalists (any sympathies in that direction notwithstanding). All of us could therefore add as well: if we were not teachable we would still believe some doctrines we now believe are false. (And some of us, though not myself, would put that in terms of your rhetorically colorful antipathy: we would “still be entangled in the false doctrine of” whichever. )
What Sonia is complaining about, by the way, is that her post from beginning to end involved her putting logic and reason over emotions (even over her own emotions, including back when she was anti-universalist); and the sentence you quoted was about her emphasizing logic and reason; and yet you offered it as conclusive and obvious evidence (“hitting the nail on the head”) that her beliefs are primarily about her feelings instead. You couldn’t even take one of her few actual sentences about her feelings and present that out of context to try to make your point!
When people decide to put you on their foe-list so they can more easily ignore you, things like this is why they do it.
I totally agree with you. When I started to believe that the offer of salvation of Jesus Christ went beyond the grave, I made that decision based strictly on diligent biblical study and prayer. For example, at the time, I had zero desire to resign my ministry credentials from the Assemblies of God.
However, if I ever find anybody who would rigorously examine all of the relevant Scriptures and help me to see that the evidence strongly points in the direction of the traditional Western Christian interpretation of hell, then I would believe that again. So far, everybody who examined all of the relevant Scriptures with me has not made a strong case for the Western Christian interpretation of hell. And so far, no opponents of my doctrine on this board have been willing to discuss all the relevant Scriptures.
Sonia
By no means am I calling you a liar. ( would never do that)There must be a misunderstanding… but when you say UR makes sense to you because it is moral ( it makes me think you are interpreting scripture by your emotions). If this is not correct, what did you mean?
I challenge you or anyone else to show me my error of the scriptures I talked to you about. I’m willing to be corrected if you can show me my error.
Btw, who is Jason Pratt, Bob Wilson, Aaron, Jim Goetz, this forum, etc .and why would you listen to them? If you listen to them why not me?
God bless,
Aaron
Jason
Foe-list? That is so lame, Jason. May I ask, why do UR’s claim to have an inside track of God’s love and His plan of salvation( that 99% of the body of Christ doesn’t have) as do the Mormon’s and Jehovah’s Witnesess? Does it concern you that you belong to a minute class of believers when it comes to UR?
God bless,
Aaron
Likewise, if I were not teachable I would still believe in eternal conscious torment.
Aug
No, you had that doctrine right…lol
IF you could clear your mind of presuppositions that act as a veil when reading scripture - you would understand that ‘all’ means ALL in the hundreds of universal passages in the NT. “God is the savior of all men.” Do you understand how that simple statement is, in fact, veiled to you?
I say IF, because one cannot clear away the veil without God’s help. And, lest you forget, we’re not the ones insisting that ‘all’ means ‘some.’
Tied to that idea of having the truth veiled is the status of ‘perishing’. Which we all are and need salvation from. It’s rather humbling when one admits that one is not sole source and possessor of THE TRUTH. The hardest part of being human is admitting that one IS human.
I’m glad that it was an honest mistake. I’ll clarify …
“Moral” (in the sense I intended it) simply means having to do with right and wrong. Would “ethically” have conveyed my meaning to you more accurately? Morals and ethics are not emotional issues. Right and wrong, (in my view) are objective realities–they don’t change with one’s emotional state. And I hope and believe that my moral sense is informed by, and in agreement with, and continuing to grow into accord with the teachings of Christ.
You ignored that I also included “scripturally” and “logically” in my statement. To elaborate a bit on that, my meaning was that I find it difficult to imagine becoming un-convinced of UR because I find the doctrine:
- scripturally coherent By this I mean that I am convinced that it is the clear teaching of the scriptures both in the context of each book, and in the overarching context of scripture as a whole.
AND ALSO
- **morally or ethically coherent ** By this I mean that I find the doctrine to line up with my scripturally-based understanding of what is right and just.
AND ALSO
- logically coherent By this I simply mean that I find the doctrine to accord with reason.
We’ve been down that road, Aaron. Maybe someone else can help you out better than I can. However, my inability to help you grasp my point of view is not going to convince me that I’m wrong.
I’m not really interested in arguing about UR. (UR is not what saves people.) If I was, I’d go somewhere else and find people to argue with. I come here because UR is accepted here. I’m quite willing to share my hope in UR with anyone who’s interested in knowing what I believe and why I believe it, but I don’t find in myself a pressing urgency to convince everyone who disagrees. If you are satisfied with your belief in a hopeless and neverending state of lostness for those who don’t follow Christ in this life, I really don’t have any desire to try to ‘make’ you believe otherwise.
LOL — So* that’s* the crux of the matter! You’re jealous! 
Just kidding.
What exactly do you mean when you say I “listen to them” but not to you? I read your posts. I read their posts. If you think I shape my beliefs according to what anyone here says–or anyone anywhere for that matter–you are mistaken. I am aware that I have some differences of belief (and in some cases, significant differences) with Jason, Aaron, Jim, Ran, Todd, TGB, Dondi, “Gregory Macdonald”, and probably others as well–but I doubt any of them will exhort me to become more ‘teachable’ if I continue in disagreement with them.
The difference with you is that you expect that I should place my own convictions secondary to yours. If I choose to reject your belief system, then you assume that I am stubbornly rejecting the truth of scripture and the instruction of the Spirit; that my emotional wishes are more important to me than Truth. If I don’t accept *your *doctrine, then you conclude that I am clinging to doctrines of men. Do you see the irony of that?
Sonia
Sonia
Thanks for clarifying…I just have not heard anyone describe interpreting the Bible( morally, logically, etc…kinda of odd)…I do see the irony in that …but you are clinging to the doctrines of men… Just kidding ( but you are).
God bless,
Aaron
I wish you could understand that I was not looking for UR. It found me. I could go into details but they would be meaningless to you. Let’s just say is was direct revelation. Now you might say that Satan gave me the revelation but if he did he has convinced me that God is bigger than I ever imagined, and that He loves more that we ever expected. Does it make sense to you that Satan would tell such a lie? (direct question) As a result of finding something I wasn’t looking for I set out to see if there was anyone who had been given similar revelations. The journey led me here. Can you imagine my surprise when I found so many.
Nimble
Satan is the source of all false doctrine, but the Holy Spirit through Paul warned us in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that Christians in these last days will turn from the truth and have itching ears to false doctrines and fables.
2 Timothy 4:3-4…3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Btw, have you received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues regulary?
God bless,
Aaron
First of all: Stop using the 99% thing that I’m not even going to bother quoting, because everyone has read you post it half a dozen times. The number of people that believe something has nothing to do with its truth value. Second: You accuse RanRan of being more of a Lutheran than a Christian and yet throw around your Pentacostal particulars every other post. XX% of Christians believe the era of mass praying in tongues is completely over, blah, blah, bah.
Love Ya, Rainzbow…Btw, have you received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues?
What percentage of Christians speak in tongues ? I think its somewhere around 1% which means that 99% don’t …so by the logic you are choosing to use …?
I find myself in agreement with St. Paul that the freedom of the Christian to do whatever if it doesn’t bother their conscience (their walk) to be a central tenant of the faith. I think the more ‘religious’ a person is, the more constricted they are in that essential freedom.
I think Aaron is both bothered by and envious of that freedom. He’s tried piling on the guilt and fear but no one is trembling. He obviously thinks that that reaction is caused by blindness and not the courage freedom fosters. Our ‘sin’ is in the seeing that God is love without equivocation and trusting that sight and be emboldened. Who wouldn’t be envious of that?
Paul didn’t use that most common conjunction out of his own freedom but the envious do…'God is love, BUT…
I am replying to OP and not anything written afterward.
If evidence shows that UR is incorrect and that there are billions going to Hell for their unbelief (because essentially that is what Christianity believes is the only reason anyone would go to Hell). I would do as I told God in 2004, I believe He is real, I believe He is God, but I will deny Him for because He is the very devil who came to steal, kill and destroy. The same devil whom I am to be weary of. If there is no other God but this one, I will fight Him and prevail because He is a weak God.