The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Going Back?

Blessings nimble…

Wow – there is, of course NO going back!
Go back to pablum and fear? when there remains the MEAT of the gospel??? UR is GOOD NEWS!!
Go back? – not a chance!

It’s a funny thing nimble – I’ve prayed the same thing; if I’m wrong, let me go back to where I once was (which, unlike you, was annihilationism…) –
a place where the sinners recalcitrance trumps the creative redemptive-ness of God…
a place where God’s Grace is beaten by mere men…
a place where, somehow, the love of God shrinks and looms impotent in the face of fallen mans “choice”…

Nimble – you have arrived at a place where there IS no going back and you know it. Thus your post here. This is precisely the sort of question which justifies your quest!!!
You ask, implicitly here, am I wrong to take this audacious step towards God? AM I wrong to HOPE so vastly?

It seems to me that a persons theology alights on the one which answers the greatest number of his questions. For me, to “go back” would be to return to wondering if God’s Love really is love; to asking what sort of people could be happy (to say nothing of God being happy) knowing their loved ones are lost and/or being tormented; to wondering how God can assert Total Victory over death if death gets to retain it’s “winnings”.

Sure questions on how it all evolves and transpires are real and are exciting to consider. It’s why I’m here. But for me, no understanding of God answers more questions than does that of Universal Reconciliation!
Thanks for the post

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Wow, the silence is deafening! Actually my research shows that its somewhere between 4 and 20% but still…?

Aaron,
I find myself wondering why it should matter to you that you’ve not heard anyone use those words in relation to understanding the Bible? I don’t know if I have either, but what does that have to do with anything? The words came from my attempt to honestly and objectively analyse my reasons for “clinging” to the doctrine of UR. I did not look to anyone else to tell me what my motives ‘should’ be or what words I ought to use–any more than I look to others to tell me what I should believe.

If we are taught by the Spirit of God it doesn’t matter what anyone else says.

I am not concerned with what the majority of Christians believe–nor should any true Christian. Our responsibility is to God who has called us. To follow the crowd is not the same as seeking God. When we seek Him with all our being, then, we will find Him. (So, btw, I am NOT concerned in the slightest with what percentage of Christians believe in UR–though I am curious as to how you’ve come up with that number.)

If we rely on what anyone else says, instead of our own personal knowledge of God, then we are like Eve in the Garden–“God told me such-and-such, but this fellow says another thing. Maybe he knows the truth better than I do.”

My confidence is in my God and Father who loves me. As Paul says, “I do not even judge myself” – We are to live according to the truth we have been given by God “who is near to each one of us” and HE who searches our hearts and minds, will judge us in righteousness.

Sonia

Sonia

How do you know that you are being taught by the Holy Spirit? Give me some examples of how you know the Holy Spirit is teaching you. After all, we all claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit ( its a cliche) yet there is so much division between the body of Christ when it comes to doctrine. Therefore, the majority of people who claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit are actually being taught by religious traditions.

God bless,
Aaron

Just pointing out, there are people who have put you on block (I call it the “foe-list” because that’s what the system software calls it), who are watching to see if you’ve improved any when people quote you and reply to you. (I’m sure the same is true for Ran and SoW, btw; they aren’t the most popular members around here either, and I know some members who have foed them, too. I expect there are some people to whom this thread looks like one gigantic black hole. :laughing: )

First, I’m not so sure it’s such a minute class; in my experience, a lot of Christians at least want to hope securely for the salvation of all sinners from sin, and in practice do hold out that hope for people they themselves love (at least). Might even be a majority of Christians, who knows? (I pointed out in an article a few years ago, that the results of two Southern Baptist seminary polls, intended to gauge proportional relations between Arminianistic and Calvinistic teaching in graduates going into ministry positions, surprisingly pointed to at least 1/3 graduates taking a position tantamount to universalism: affirming one key Calv doctrine while denying another in favor Arm instead.)

Second, I’m a Protestant, so I’m already in a minority (both presently and throughout all Christian history) when it comes to being in a class of believers. If I was going to be swayed decisively by a majority headcount, I’d be Roman Catholic (the present and all-time majority since the Great Schism) or at least Eastern Orthodox (depending on whether I thought they or the RCCs best reflect the pre-schism majority back through the 1st century.)

Last time I checked, you weren’t in the RCC either. So, does it concern you that you belong to a definite minority of believers?–keeping in mind that whatever particular branch of Protestantism you follow is itself only a fraction of Protestantism (and unless you’re Southern Baptist, a minority fraction at that)?

If you answer that you’re only talking about being in the small minority in regard to one particular doctrine, I answer that we’re both in the (relatively) small minority in regard to various particular doctrines held by the RCC and/or the EOx. Nor does (or should) that obscure the huge agreements we all have (RCC, EOx and orthodox trinitarian Protestant) on more basic theology.

Anyway, playing the majority card is quite shortsighted. That, or you should go start taking RCC catechism as soon as possible in order to make sure that you yourself are definitely in the majority when it comes to all doctrines. :wink: Then you can come back and challenge me on majority doctrine from a stance of actually being in the majority communion.

(Note: if you’re actually in full communion with the RCC and I somehow missed that over all the months you’ve been here, my apologies. Let me know and I’ll retract this part of my answer. :slight_smile: )

Second-and-a-half: my basic theological disagreements with Mormons and JHs, have exactly NOTHING to do with their relative minority among people trying to follow Jesus. As far as I’m concerned, picking on them with that argument would be equivalent to trying to bully someone smaller than myself simply because they were smaller. Might, including majority might, does not make right, even when I’m the one in the majority. I would never throw that against them; I have more honor than that.

Third: even the apostles themselves had trouble understanding and accepting some doctrines of Christ; a trouble that persisted for at least one of them (St Peter) into the post-Resurrection apostolic ministry, and thus into the period of being taught by the Holy Spirit. Which, by the way, is one reason why Protestants protest that highest-rank church teaching (even by the Pope, as the first Pope himself demonstrated at least twice in the scriptural record itself), even on matters of faith and practice, is not intrinsically infallible. That includes highest-rank Protestant church teaching, too, in case you hadn’t heard. :wink: (Including me, for that matter!–I don’t consider myself to be infallible in my understanding and teaching either. How about you?)

Consequently, if I discover reason to believe that the majority of Christian teachers are wrong about a doctrinal interpretation of scripture, then I am not in some kind of panic of concern. There was a time, you know (or maybe you don’t know) when Arminianism per se was very definitely in the minority compared to Calvinism among Protestants; but that didn’t stop you from changing your mind to Arm from Calv. If you had lived under the reign of the Calvinist Reformers and came to believe Arminianistic theology was correct (on those few points where it differs from Calv theology per se), and a Calvinist (or a Roman Catholic for that matter!) came to you, not even addressing your actual beliefs, much less your actual reasons thereof, but challenging you merely on a matter of majority: how concerned would you be?

For what it’s worth, though: I was concerned enough that, for most of my life I did not believe universalism to be true (even if in some parts of my heart I wanted it to be true); and I was concerned enough that, for several years after I first saw strong evidence pointing toward its truth, I resolved not to publicly promote it until and unless I saw stronger credence for it from the scriptures than I did at that time. I am extremely careful in taking the positions I take, not least because there are people who read what I write not having the time, skill or resources to do the research and the logical math themselves. But also, and even more importantly, because I love God and so I want to rightly praise Him and rightly want to represent Him to other people (both of which are implied in the compound word ortho-doxy), whether in the Church Universal or out of it.

Aaron,
That is between God and myself.

I do not say “God told me such-and-such, therefore you should believe it too.” I do not claim the gift of prophecy.

Each of us is taught by God–Christ tells us we have ONE teacher–and each of us is accountable to God, the righteous judge.

Gal 6
But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. For each one will bear his own load.

I thank you for your concern, but I am certain that the matter can be safely entrusted to God.

Sonia

Having read further on in the thread: yeah, it’s hugely amusing that A37 throws the minority challenge, right before insisting on a test to be passed (praying in tongues as a validation of receiving the Holy Spirit) that is currently (or throughout Christian history) only accepted by a bare minimum of Christians.

So, for those of you still foe-ing him: he’s still doing things like this.

(And apparently he thinks it makes perfect sense that Satan would inspire someone to believe that God will save Satan from his sins and lead him eventually out of rebellion into loyalty again under the authority of Christ. That, or A37 still hasn’t bothered to figure out what Christian universalism implies for even the greatest rebels against God. Or he bothered to figure it out but didn’t bother to remember it. Or he bothered to remember it but thought if he didn’t mention it then his mere retort that Satan inspires lies would still make sense to someone–maybe to readers who are wholly ignorant of Christian universalism.)

If that’s the case - why should I write anything? So, how do I delete my account?

You mean, why should you write anything at all if some fraction of the audience can set themselves up to ignore your posts? Or do you mean, why should you write anything at all if some fraction of the audience has (not only can) set themselves up to do so? Or do you mean, why should you write anything at all if all (not only part) of the audience has done so?

If you mean the latter, my answer is: not everyone has. (Or even can!–mods and admins can’t set up the system to ignore posts, for example. :slight_smile: )

If you mean either of the former: that’s something I can’t help you with. When I gave the instructions on how to do so, I used myself as the example–basically teaching people how to foe-list me! Yet here I am still writing. I guess the possibility (or actuality) of being foed doesn’t bother me. :smiley: But my precept has always been, that if I am not being helpful then people should definitely drop me–just as one of my teachers, Lewis, used to say.

So, actually, I don’t mind in the least if people foe me. (Which I think is possible for someone to do to a mod; I created a sock-puppet specifically to test that out, and successfully foed my main account if I recall correctly. What can’t be done is set private mail to ignore a mod or admin.) I would rather people put me on their ignore list, than that I should distract them with things they don’t find helpful.

Don’t know. I wasn’t able to discover how to delete “EvilTwinSockPuppet” either, after I was done using it for a test. It’s still there in the members’ list!


It might be of some use to observe, however, that just because that account still exists, doesn’t mean I have to post with it. Most members never post comments at all. (Including 3 other E-named members, at this time, for example.)

So, if you don’t want to post because people might possibly ignore you, then don’t worry, you can just not post–your account doesn’t force you to post every once in a while whether you want to post or not. :slight_smile:

Jason

you said: Having read further on in the thread: yeah, it’s hugely amusing that A37 throws the minority challenge, right before insisting on a test to be passed (praying in tongues as a validation of receiving the Holy Spirit) that is currently (or throughout Christian history) only accepted by a bare minimum of Christians.

So, for those of you still foe-ing him: he’s still doing things like this.

Aaron: Sigh… yeah, Its hugely amazing that I dont recall insisting that any test to be passed? If you are referring to the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of praying in tongues is currently or throughout Christian history only accepted by a bare minimum of Christians…you are mistaken, my friend. Currently, over 700 million( and multiplying everyday) Christians have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit ( including myself and others on this forum) hardly a bare minimum of Christians, Jason. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a foundational doctrine of the body of Christ. Jason, you have let religion deceive you to believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit is only accepted by a bare minimum of Christians. I pray the scales that blind you to the truth of the baptism in the Holy Spirit fall from your eyes.

God bless,
Aaron

Um, that goes without saying, doesn’t it?

I suppose I could foe everyone and use this place for my journal. But I would probably give in to curiosity - I make a lousy elitist.

There must be a way to delete an account - and delete all the posts associated with the account. Think of the satisfaction!

Ran

Lol… Elitist… that was great…lol

Sonia

Your response has answered the question for me.

God bless,
Aaron

Good. :sunglasses:
Sonia

Let’s not make fun of them. They don’t like you, they don’t like me - online forums always end up being cliquish with wannabe superiors sucking up to the powers. History repeating itself. Power corrupts.

It’s the way the world runs - it’s no different here. This ain’t church - the Evangelical Univeralist is a privately owned club - remember that, Aaron. It’s about power and thought control - we left freedom at the door when we joined. It’s not their fault. It’s ours.

Did they ban you again?

Ran

I’m not making fun of them…just thought your comment was funny. No, they have not banned me, but I have been restricted for 4 months and counting from creating New Topics…

God bless,
Aaron

Even though I am not a Universalist, the possibility of it being true keeps me from despair. If I found that the tormentist view were proven, I would have to embrace it. But I might at that point be living in a hospital for severe depression! At least you know I take it seriously!

And if people don’t exhibit miraculous powers like, for example, praying in tongues (to give the bare minimum typically accepted among pentacostals), then that’s evidence they haven’t accepted the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

700 million seems a bit optimistic for pentacostal Christian numbers, but okay let’s go with that. So it’s like 35% out of 2 billion. A solid minimum then instead of a bare minimum (at the present time, not counting roughly 2000 years of history, where pentacostal protocols have hardly dominated the Christian scene).

Unless of course you mean 100% of Christians are pentacostals because only pentacostals can possibly be Christians. In which case we’re absolutely back to the notion of a test or giving evidence to prove that we’re even worth spending time talking to you on any spiritual topic. Which naturally would explain why, whenever you’re stymied as to logic and accurate data, you tend to fall back on ‘Do you speak in tongues or heal people? Tell me how often or how many of these things you do.’

That ‘tell me’, even when it’s tacitly implied by the question (as a way of counter-challenging someone else’s understanding of spiritual truth), is a test. Of what? According to many (if not all) pentacostals, of someone having been truly baptized in the Holy Spirit. Without which true baptism they cannot be Christians (as in fact all Christians believe, whether they are pentacostal in their protocols about detecting that baptism or not). And if they aren’t true Christians?–well, you’ve already shown us before (in places I can link to again, if you’ve forgotten), that you think it’s outright impossible for those who are not already truly Christian to understand spiritual things, and so you refuse on that ground to even discuss spiritual things with such people. You’ll only witness at them instead. (Preaching Christ and Him crucified, in some purely non-spiritual way, except when you do it in a spiritual way which, supposedly, the objects of your evangelism cannot possibly understand or accept because they are not already Christian.)

True enough, and we’ve been up front about that since the beginning. This isn’t a publicly owned forum, and everyone who posts here (myself included) does so as a guest of the owners.

Also admittedly true, in some limited ways, as well.

Which clearly explains why the leadership refuses to permanently ban anyone, and only bans people temporarily after months of activity, and then doesn’t go around deleting all dissenting posts.

Or, not.

A37’s ongoing bar from creating new posts is semi-accidental. I don’t know why someone with admin powers hasn’t undone it yet, but it was intended to be only a few weeks, and every once in a while–including today–I remind them that this has not been fixed yet and ought to be. Granted, the odds are pretty good it isn’t a high priority because the admins don’t much like Aaron37–which I can sympathize with. :wink: But if it was being done as part of some totalitarian plot on the part of even some of the admins, a lot more people would be banned from creating new posts. Including you. Has that happened yet? Nope. In fact, last time I checked, the person most agitating for admins to utterly control your thoughts, was you. (i.e. insisting we delete your account so that, among other things, you cannot create any new posts; and also wiping out all your current and past posts.)

Come to think of it, the last time I checked, the person most agitating in favor of restricting the rights of other people in regard to your thoughts, was also you. (i.e., how dare the admins allow other people to set the system so that those people and only those people can ignore your posts if they want to!)

By comparison, none of the admins has any problem at all allowing other people to set the system to ignore our posts if they want to. This was, in fact, explicitly what I taught people to do, using myself as the target. Not you or A37 or anyone else. Nor, by the way, have I ever recommended people use this forum ability on you or anyone else (except on myself!), other than the people who were pleading with us to ban various people–which we were refusing to do, and continued not to do afterward for a while (and then only in a temporary way.)

Jason

Oh boy…where do I start…I wish I could utilize my quote button…anyways:

  1. I’m not pentecostal. I attended 4 yrs in a pentecostal church, but I was not raised up in pentecostal doctrine. I believe one can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and not pray in tongues. Why? Because you have to do the praying yourself… most people think that the Holy Spirit will automatically pray for them, not so…they can go years without praying in tongues due to ignorance. But the intial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is praying or speaking in tongues.

  2. Do your research… 700 million is a conservative number( very big number for something that apparently passed away with the Apostles…don’t ya think, Jason?). I know you like to write and read books…I recommend “2000 years of Charismatic Christianity” by Eddie L. Hyatt. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is for the body of Christ regardless of denomination…it is not just “pentecostal” as you put it. The devil and religion has done a good job confusing certain denominations to believe that this doctrine no longer exists ( because he knows the power behind receiving the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues) therefore, explaining the 35% or so who walk in it.( those numbers are multiplying everyday at an extraordinary rate, praise God)

you said: That ‘tell me’, even when it’s tacitly implied by the question (as a way of counter-challenging someone else’s understanding of spiritual truth), is a test. Of what? According to many (if not all) pentacostals, of someone having been truly baptized in the Holy Spirit. Without which true baptism they cannot be Christians (as in fact all Christians believe, whether they are pentacostal in their protocols about detecting that baptism or not). And if they aren’t true Christians?–well, you’ve already shown us before (in places I can link to again, if you’ve forgotten), that you think it’s outright impossible for those who are not already truly Christian to understand spiritual things, and so you refuse on that ground to even discuss spiritual things with such people. You’ll only witness at them instead. (Preaching Christ and Him crucified, in some purely non-spiritual way, except when you do it in a spiritual way which, supposedly, the objects of your evangelism cannot possibly understand or accept because they are not already Christian.)

Aaron: Jason, there are three baptisms in the New Testament. 1) Baptism into Christ ( being born again) 2) Water baptism. 3) Baptism in the Holy Spirit. You only need #1 to be considered a Christian.( you should do all three) I said people who are not born again can understand intellectually spirtual things( otherwise they could not be born again), but not the fullness of them because they are spiritually discerned( if I said otherwise…that was an honest mistake). I don’t recall the Apostle Paul debating scripture with gentile unbelievers… he preached and demonstrated Christ and Him Crucified.

God bless,
Aaron