Goodness as punishment

[MikeWatson]

I know this calls for speculation, but … I’ve been musing on the form that the corrective punishment might take.

I did hear that Eastern Orthodox has the view that it will be an exposure to God’s love.

I was thinking of the account in Exodus where Moses asks (more like commands) God to show him His glory.

Exodus 33:

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

It seems like the glory/goodness of God is hard for humans to be near.

Could it be that it is God’s goodness that does the correcting? That the pain is in response to an unbridled experience of God’s goodness?

This seems to make sense to me. Is it something that has been discussed here or has any traction here?

Thanks,

Mike

[fatherlearningtolove]

Oh, I definitely think you’re onto something here. I think that when the love of God truly begins to touch your heart and you begin to feel empathy, you will hurt for all of those you have hurt, as well as those who have been hurt while you did nothing. And that’s when the faith in God’s forgiveness as well as the faith that God will bring everything into accordance with His will becomes a necessity.

[Cindy_Skillman]

Oh yes, this has traction. Our God is a consuming fire. I hadn’t thought about it in context with Moses though. Good call! You know that in some of the scenes in Revelation, the Lake of Fire is in the throne room of God. The Sea of Fire and Crystal, with the elders standing round it and the throne of God at the far end? And there’s that verse that talks about the unrighteous being tormented/refined in the presence of God and the holy angels. I suspect that it IS the presence of God that torments/refines them. What is light and goodness and glory and mercy to us is hate and ignominy and hurtfulness and darkness to those who do not love Him – who love their sin and their self-reliance and their pride.

This has been discussed here and there on the forum, quite a lot, but I’m not sure whether it’s had its own thread until now. It may have. I don’t always remember these details. Getting old, you know. I have an excuse – what’s everyone else’s?! I believe George MacDonald also talks about it, that at a distance God’s presence is painful, but when you come up close to Him, it’s wonderful. The closer you come the less it hurts, but you have to come through the refining fire to get there. Just the way it is. Jesus made it possible, but of course it’s still painful to separate from the world, and that’s what the fire is for – to burn all the yuck away.

[anon12438761]

If we use the metaphor of ‘healing’ for the work Christ does in us, we can also say that not all healing feels good - medicine can taste horrible, shots can hurt, rehab can really be painful for a long stretch of time. There are good healers who are all about soothing and understanding, and there are good healers that know when strong medicine, or chemo, or even electroshock therapy is needed.
We need wisdom to see that all those things can be expressions of goodness as well.
So it’s not a stretch to think that Goodness, though it hurt, is healing as well.

[Sobornost]

I agree completely Mike - and this brings in the dimension often lost in accounts of judgement - sin is inter-dividual, the healing of judgement takes place between individuals and communities etc (and this has to be intimately and inextricably bound together with the healing that takes place between individuals and God). So judgment is something I envisage as more like the pain of warm blood in a frost bitten hand (and sometimes a very deeply frozen hand), and the pain of hands reaching out to touch and embrace while defrosting (and it is only the reaching out that defrosts them) rather than the pain of proportionate strokes of the lash that just don’t happen to last forever.

[MikeWatson]

Thanks, all - that’s very encouraging

And I got a “good call” from Cindy!

[Stefcui]

Looking at the images of the throne, you have a simple equation… there are some who are nearer and others who are further. I believe that punishment will be reflected in this model. The first-fruit sons and daughters who are faithful are nearer to God, yet further away, in “outer darkness”, are the unbelievers and the hypocrites and the evil-doers:

“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:11, 12

"Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
**Matthew 22:13 **

“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
**Matthew 25:30 **

In each instance the ‘punishment’ is depicted as “outer” - a proximity which is further away from God. I believe that the proximity is the punishment, and the resurrection body will be suited to this distance. For instance, Moses’ body was not suited to see God, “for no one may see me and live.” In the resurrection, however, the children of God will be given bodies which are suited to see God: “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.”

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.”
Matthew 5:8

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.”
John 1:12

“As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.”
Psalm 17:15

“Even to them will I give in my house and within my walls a place…”
Isaiah 56:5

“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.”
**Philippians 3:20, 21 **