The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Grace — Forgiveness — Faith — Repentance

Theology
#157

As far as I can see, he has not stated that he believes in universal reconciliation, just universal forgiveness. There is a world of difference.
If ‘A’ forgives ‘B’, that does not mean that ‘B’ chooses to reconcile himself to ‘A’

In addition, the story of Adam and Eve is informative. The action of eating the fruit immediately resulted in Adam and Eve being terribly afraid of God.
Even if God has always been overflowing with forgiveness, we can still be at enmity with Him. If we are at enmity, then we are not reconciled.

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#158

John, that is the way I understand it also, but I have to deal with the emphasis Beck (and davo) bring also. I’ve been worrying this same bone for a couple of years, and can’t find a way to …wait for it…reconcile the two sides of that equation.

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#159

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” — not imputing trespasses = forgiveness = reconciliation.

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#160

Davo -I’m not picking on you, but I am struggling to get a hold on this - in what way was the world NOT reconciled pre-Christ? If as we believe, it was not God that needed reconciling - in other words, he did not change - then what DID change? Since, as is obvious, the world has not ‘changed’ its behavior since the resurrection - what did reconciliation actually DO that changed anything?
In other words, if salvation is more than bookkeeping - saying for instance “everyone is forgiven, end of story” - if it means being saved from our sins, then something REAL has to happen in a person’s life.
I’m not questioning your take on things here - I see the strength of your position and could actually take a step or two in that direction, but these real questions keep hanging me up.

I still see the now-not yet approach as the most flexible and overall convincing. Something HAS been done, but the fruit of that has yet to be fulfilled.

Beck himself in an article on Repentance says: “As we reflect on repentance during Lent I think this is a good time to think about the “proper response” to the gospel. Specifically, the “Steps of Salvation” gospel has tended to emphasize a response of faith. Cognitive assent. But when we come to see the gospel as the declaration that the “kingdom of God has come near” the issue is less about belief than repentance. Jesus declares in Mark “Repent and believe the good news.” The primacy of repentance is even more clear in the gospel of Matthew” and further - https://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2014/03/repent-kingdom-of-heaven-is-at-hand.html

And “Why has the role of repentance been deemphasized in many sectors of Christianity? One answer, I think, has to do with what Scot McKnight has pointed out: We’ve reduced the gospel to salvation. Thus, the crux of Christian life becomes cognitive assent (i.e., faith) rather than readjusting our lives in the face of the gospel–that Jesus is Lord and the rule/kingdom of God has broken upon us. As I described above, it’s so much easier to believe that Jesus is King than to obey him as King.”

“Repentance is preparing for the reign of God. It’s not about getting down on yourself. It’s about clearing out the rubbish and clutter of our lives. Sort of like spring cleaning. (Literally, at times, a spring cleaning. To the point of going through your stuff and giving it away.) More, repentance is about loyalty and allegiance. It’s about hearing the declaration of the gospel and switching sides. It has less to do with guilt than about joining up with a new team.”

I think Beck is getting to repentance as being a response to the good news about forgiveness?

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#161

Hi Davo
In an earlier post (126?) you quoted Romans 5:10 and I didn’t reply because it gave me much food for thought:
Rom 5:10 Even when we were God’s enemies, he made peace with us, because his Son died for us. Yet something even greater than friendship is ours. Now that we are at peace with God, we will be saved by his Son’s life.

Personally, I don’t think that 2 Cor 5:19 (above) is strong enough to support your case but, as I say, Rom 5:10 seems to be more supportive and still gives me food for thought:

In addition of course we should always compare scripture with scripture eg Romans Chapter 10:
"Dear friends, my greatest wish and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. I know they love God, but they don’t understand what makes people acceptable to him. So they refuse to trust God, and they try to be acceptable by obeying the Law. But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith. Moses said that a person could become acceptable to God by obeying the Law. He did this when he wrote, “If you want to live, you must do all that the Law commands.” But people whose faith makes them acceptable to God will never ask, “Who will go up to heaven to bring Christ down?” Neither will they ask, “Who will go down into the world of the dead to raise him to life?” All who are acceptable because of their faith simply say, “The message is as near as your mouth or your heart.” And this is the same message we preach about faith. So you will be saved, if you honestly say, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe with all your heart that God raised him from death. God will accept you and save you, if you truly believe this and tell it to others.

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#162

I think Beck is getting it right, and you seem to likewise be leaning in this direction too. I further think Beck indicates this perfectly as I noted earlier right here…

Repentance brings one into this reality — on the personal level.

Thanks John, I’m glad you’re thinking.

I would simply note in this case then that… IF the Romans reference makes my case AND you can see that, THEN logic would reasonably surmise that the Corinthians reference doesn’t contradict it BUT can simply be read in the light of it — the former has teased out further what the latter summarises — or conversely… headline / article, i.e., using scripture to understand scripture.

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#163

I would like to reply to the above statements but before I do, perhaps you wouldn’t mind answering a question Davo?
Do you believe that everyone has already been saved by what Christ did ~2000 years ago?

#164

I suppose you just throw out Matt 6:15?

“But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

I don’t get it.

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#165

No, not according to my view… I can point you back up the page to HERE.

#166

Thank you. To be honest, I can’t follow all of the post you refer to but enough to be confident that you have answered my question and that you do not consider that everyone has been individually saved.
Let me return to what you said here:

I’ll break it down:

I’m not at all sure that it does ‘make your case’. What I said was:

-that is very different and I feel it prudent to compare scripture with scripture. This I did and I cited Rom 10 which says that people’s faith makes them acceptable to God.

I think one problem we may have may simply be semantics and word definitions. You and I may have a different concept of the meaning of the word “reconciled”.
I maintain that if two parties are said to be ‘reconciled’ (whether the parties are human or divine) then most people take that to mean that both parties are in harmony and at ease with each other.
Another example of a possible semantics problem is the following, when you say:

I read that to mean that salvation is a component of reconciliation. I now believe that this is not what you mean.

#167

That is such a huge question and I couldn’t do it justice other than to point out the obvious at least in terms of God’s intervention in Christ… plenty enough was amiss that after said intervention Paul could state with categoric confidence God had indeed reconciled the word to Himself — so things changed.

As I understand it… what changed on the broad scale was the state of man before God BECAUSE OF God — man went from alienated and estranged to reconciled.

Reconciliation has facilitated the possibility and power for change through the grace of God.

And I guess that is only best quantifiable in one’s own life… consider your own walk with God etc.

So maybe I’m reading you wrong (??) but according to your thoughts above it seems you struggle to accept fulfilment based purely on your considered observations, i.e., how you expect things should be behaviourally as opposed to your actual experience, that is, seeing is believing; and thus if you’re not seeing it as you estimate it should be then the greater cannot be true as there is yet more to be fulfilled etc. (??)

#168

I think that probably goes without saying, i.e., you’re right. I have a hunch we may have possible differing understanding on what “saved” in some contexts might mean, or how it outworks, or works out.

In the days of the NT some / many could be saved from the coming onslaught Jesus foretold… this I think is reflected in Rom 10:9-10. To confess and believe in Caesar was to acknowledge and swear allegiance, i.e., putting one in right standing. Jesus was a challenge to Caesar and to confess and acknowledge Him was to follow what He said through his servants the apostles.

To be saved was also something outworked or worked out in the internal man via His life-changing word, i.e., the gospel, as per Jas 1:21.

So… just because all were reconciled… “when we were sinners” NOT when we confessed, does not mean all come to a saving experience OR a saving knowledge in life.

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#169

Because we are in God’s image we have value and worth even after the fall. Sin has put a stain on God’s image but hasn’t erased it.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image

Because we have sinned we are unworthy before God not man. Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God. As humans created in God’s image we deserve to be loved by others. We are only unworthy before God. Yet He bestows His grace on us making us worthy of eternal life only because we are in Christ and His righteousness. We are now accepted by God because we are in Christ. We are in a right standing with God. As a result we obey showing that we are worthy of salvation from sin and death.

#170

Don’t unresponsive men still often experience a state of alienation before God?
In actual reality, doesn’t the world still experience God’s wrath in terms of being turned over to the consequences of our sinful choices?

Do you see what changed as being God’s improved disposition toward the world?
Is God now less angry toward sin and more reconciled toward those who practice it?

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#171

The only way I can understand what has Happened, what has been Done is this: it was all done IN CHRIST, and effective for those IN CHRIST. Those asking for and receiving new life through the Holy Spirit.

In other words, God was saying "See this Man? All those that are in him are the ‘saved’ the ‘elect’ the ‘reconciled’. There is no reconciliation outside of Jesus Christ. God was in Christ, in CHRIST, reconciling the world to Himself. We can proclaim that. In fact we must! The Church - the body of Christ, of which he is the head - is to exemplify Christ’s life IN US, in our different ways as different parts of the Body, to bring that reconciliation to sinful humanity - sinners, by and large, just as you and I were (and to an extent still are).

That concept of “IN CHRIST” is imo missing in some of our semantic dodge-ball. :slight_smile:

#172

Possibly… but believing a lie will often lead to all manner of false experience.

Hmmm… I’m more inclined to take responsibility and own my faulty actions and said consequences as opposed to transferring my bad to God and then calling it God’s wrath — but that’s me.

Yes.

Man has been reconciled toward God… He didn’t need reconciling toward man — He is not angry, God is love.

#173

Would you agree that the Universalist proposition that as many that are claimed to be IN ADAM were summarily placed IN CHRIST appears to be… “semantic dodge-ball” :question:

#174

I don’t really understand the question davo. I’ll be glad to jump in once I do.

#175

The Response of Jesus:

Luke 13:1-9
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

And he answered unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

#176

Maybe Randy can come up with some think music to help you through this hard logic.