The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Grace — Forgiveness — Faith — Repentance

Grace is forgiveness… where we are forgiven of things we don’t deserve forgiveness of. Religiosity is where we first have to do certain things to attain the forgiveness of things we don’t deserve forgiveness of.

True faith is to believe that God accepts all. Misguided faith is the faith that says… my personal faith as a requirement I’ve met grants me grace, forgiveness and acceptance — it’s the mindset that turns faith into a requirement… that’s religianity — that’s death.

Gracious forgiveness is in no way controlled by nor dependent upon a personal relationship for such to be true, effective and unilaterally dispensable. True forgiveness in the heart of an aggrieved party can by one’s own choice be given… regardless of the offender’s position on the matter.

Have you never seen a TV report where an aggrieved party of a murdered loved one somewhere in their heartbrokenness finds the graciousness to release forgiveness towards the assailant? I for one can in nowise sit in self-righteous judgement and declare the aggrieved party has not truly forgiven the offender — who would I be to do such a thing?

Now consider…

Mk 11:25-26 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

For such forceful words above Jesus makes NO mention of repentance — Jesus forgave at every opportunity… we can do no less.

Now as to repentance… where Jesus DOES demand such it is in relation to forgiveness of one’s brother, i.e., between brethren, aka believers — because they should know better.


Seems I really struck a nerve Dave… which is great as it prompts thought, even though I might not so much go with some of your attached conclusions, but that’s ok — that’s what dialogue is all about. I also think it’s great that despite your reservations, or even protestations, you at least check these things out even if not getting the full thrust of it, so good for you.

It’s not a case of better but evolving. If one comes to terms with having certain of one’s core doctrines challenged and then in honest reflection rebuffed so as to start working through certain cognitive dissonance or even denials that inevitably arise to where you realise God actually accepts all with NO if, but’s or maybe’s, well then you’ll feel less threatened by views outside the box involving the box.

THAT certainly is an errant rendering of the reality of all things ‘AD70’ AND knowing you know what I’ve said about those things on this board for sooo long is a little disappointing, but to be honest Dave not totally unexpected.

Unfortunately futurism in its many flavours pretty much postpones the promises until the end — the ONLY difference being what’s being determined as the end… for you it’s OUR time-space universe, whereas for me it was THEIR old covenant world. The beauty of my position is that the fulfilled view sees God’s grace as active throughout all time… both backwards and forwards, period.

Now with regards to the actual OP… are you inclined to hold onto an offence and NOT forgive where you judge there is no discernible repentance? Is that somewhere close your position? If not, can you elaborate.

Hi Davo and Dave
I’m interested where this discussion will lead but I can’t help emphasising the following quote which I have read, and re-read, and read again:

I wish you a long and happy life Davo, but when the time comes, you could do worse than have the above quote engraved on your tombstone.

As for:

If Dave will forgive my interjection (even though I do not repent of my interjection), I believe that I share Davo’s position that God calls us to forgive even if there is no discernible repentance, just as Christ did whilst being tortured to death on the cross. I look forward to Dave’s reply.

@DaveB2.0 who are you quoting in your post?

John, I hope any quote put on my future tombstone will be a more concise one! :wink:

I readily admit to not being the brightest lamp on the porch nor even the sharpest tool in the shed. I’ve read and re-read the OP and Dave’s post and have no idea what the debate is about.

Dave, could you put your position in simpler terms so that this poor Scotsman can understand where you are going with it?


I second that. I could not connect the post with the contents of the image. I’ve not heard of the Presence movement and a Google search didn’t help. What is it @DaveB2.0?

There may be other names for the movement? I’l let those that are involved in it state the position, as I don’t want to caricaturize it in any way.
There is a vid at the beginning of this thread (see link) as well as a discussion.

So who wrote the words in the image you posted?

Davo - no, you haven’t struck a nerve - on the contrary, I’d say I struck one. I’m not at all threatened by your position - I do find it interesting, thoughtful. I’m very happy with my take on Christianity, and am encouraged greatly by others who through history have held to Christianity as the hope of the world. The foundations I have cannot be shaken by what you are presenting; my problem is that I cannot see how undoing those foundations could lead to anything better. It would take much much more than a new ‘movement’ to make me think otherwise.

What words are you referring to, Qaz? What image did I post? In this thread?

It’s an image of text that begins “It seems to me that once the deconstruction of Christianity has finished”.

Oh. Those are my words.

I love your emphasis on God’s willingness to forgive, and believe I should always be willing to forgive.

But most may question what it means to hold that the Bible describes a God who “accepts all.” You know it often portrays God as not “accepting” everything, in the sense of pouring out judgment, e.g. the Flood or AD70. Indeed, in that sense, doesn’t it also portray Jesus as not always pronouncing forgiveness, but e.g. declaring judgment upon the unrepentant leaders in God’s family? Is your meaning that this was not the expression of God’s character during the Bible’s story, but now is his stance?

You are right, Bob, but wasn’t the judgment executed in AD 70? And do you not also believe that the unrepentant will all eventually repent post mortem?

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For those interested - we had a long, detailed and pretty much civil discussion of this that will bring you up to speed on this thread. Here 'tis:

I agree 100%, however… do you require repentance BEFORE you can forgive :question:

So, relative to the OP and your happy take on Christianity… are you inclined to hold onto an offence and NOT forgive where you judge there is no discernible repentance :question:

No, when I am healthiest, I realize unforgiveness only punishes me.
I only doubt that the Bible always portrays God as pouring sunshine on the unrepentant.

I don’t understand the question.