The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?



I am glad you are getting hope again. God is truly good!—totally GOOD! Complete love casts out fear. God doesn’t require immediate sinlessness in order to have a relationship with Him. Salvation from sin is a life-long process, a process that will some day be complete. Just be willing, and God will do His part in the process.


From someone that suffers from scrupulosity myself I sometimes get these attacks that God is going to torture me big time when I die. It’s a fear that comes and goes but it can be a frightening thing to think about and go through especially when I’m prone to having anxiety and panic attacks.


Gabe, what do you mean by… “free from sin” i.e., what would/does that look like for you?

Could you possibly be being afflicted by occasional bouts of mild depression… these things can come and go being somewhat cyclical. If so, speaking with a GP/psychologist might be an option worth considering.

Well ONLY IF what he says is correct… is it :question: :question: :question:

I’ll say this… scrupulosity isn’t all so negative, in fact, the definition is: Conscientious and exact; painstaking. Having scruples; principled; the state or quality of having scruples. :slight_smile:


Well, Gabe. We are conditioned since birth, to hear that there is a hell. And ECT is the fate of the un-redeemed. We need to accept Christ and that’s all there is.

Well, sure this might come back to haunt us. I find new messages these days. Like:

Watching Joel Osteen. And that health, healing and prosperity - are available int the here and now
Or the inclusive message of Roman Catholicism - since Vatican II. Which I particularly like, in the Franciscan messages of Richard Rohr at And participating in the different contemplative methods of Franciscan nuns at
Or seeing how the Celtic Christians viewed things (see
Or seeing how the Eastern Orthodox view theosis and a different view of original sin (see - over the Augustine one.

And I have made friends with:

Native American medicine men and women. And have participated with them - in their ceremonies
And those considered to be - saints from the East
And healers of various traditions
And Buddhists - with their different methods of meditation

And many act more Christian - then some Christians i know. But they are slated for hell, if we have a narrow view of Christianity.

Perhaps because I practice disciplines like Insight Meditation. That’s described in the article at How to Practice Vipassana Insight Meditation. Or type “insight meditation” into Google. Or I slow down my mind - in Native American ceremonies. I can be more relaxed.

Or my view of health expanded. When - in addition to viewing what traditional medicine, had to say…I also looked at what homeopathy, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda and spiritual healing - had to offer.

And some friends are dual spiritual citizens. They are Roman Catholic, but also

Practice Native American spirituality or
The Bruno Groening Circle of Friends healing meditation (see or or
The Japanese Johrei healing modality (see or

But when old messages creep up. Hang out with those, getting the new messages.

Like read the works of Arthur Schopenhauer in philosophy and John Calvin in theology. :laughing:

And while you are reading, these 2 great scholars…listen to some Celtic, Christian worship music - to lighten the load. :wink:

And here are some theologians, talking about 20 minutes on YouTube - Celtic Christianity


Gabe, though I still experience my share of mental anguish, I no longer have fear of ET, which is great. Life is a lot easier when I don’t have that looming over my head. My recommendation is to saturate yourself in UR literature, which is what I did after joining this site. I highly recommend you read the book, “God’s Final Victory”. It doesn’t try to explain all the verses that could be construed as teaching ET, but rather builds a philosophical argument against ET based on principles of the faith.


God gives human beings some interesting experiences:

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (Job 1:8)

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 11:7-10)

33"Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws. (Dan.4:33)


I think i may have experienced some similar things.

Though I prefer to turn to the shrink in the sky. He charges less.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

“Death smiles at us all, but all a man can do is smile back.”

“Jesus loves you more than you [can now] know.”



Free from sin to me would, to me, be free from the inclination to sin. I know that is wishful thinking, but I can’t imagine that God feels pulled to do evil in the same way that I do. The reason I say this is because we can be worn out and tired due to our human frailty and succumb in a moment of weakness. Jesus said “Pray that you may not enter into temptation”… I think temptations served a purpose, to make us stronger, but I believe our human wills are limited. Put another temptation and stress on a human being and it is belief they will eventually sin. While God may not view this as sin due the circumstances (coercion) I have no idea.

As for depression, without offending anyone here I need to be careful with what I say. I am not convinced pharmaceuticals is the solution to depression. I am not condemning it, but I don’t want to trade one substance for another. Like, a heroin addict now can decide to use methadone, but he still remains an addict. Nothing has changed except now the addict doesn’t even feel good. Withdraw from methadone is even worse than heroin. I don’t want to correct brain imbalance with synthesized drugs. That is a personal decision by me and I realize I am the one who has to suffer or recover based on that choice.

As for scrupulosity, it is debilitating because one loses perspective. A lack of perfection on my bad doesn’t make me a bad father, or husband. While true, being perfect in my conduct would make me a better husband and father it isn’t necessarily true that the progression to such perfection, if it could be accomplished, would be worth it due to the time lost pursuing such things. In other words, sometimes perfect is the enemy of the good. know Christian’s famously quote that “Good is the enemy of the best (perfect)” but I almost believe this is the other way around, at least in dealing with humans. I think perfection is the enemy of Good. Excellence is something to strive for, but perfection is paralyses, in my opinion. Still that doesn’t mean this habit/throught process is easy to break,


I don’t want to correct brain imbalance with synthesized drugs. That is a personal decision by me and I realize I am the one who has to suffer or recover based on that choice.

I respect your stance but i want to mention that pharmaceuticals rarely are a cure for depression or other emotional/mental conditions but often they can help one manage the symptoms.


Yes Steve. I have OCD. The two meds I’m on haven’t cured me, but they do help keep the thoughts from dominating my life.


Sin in one sense is basically the selfishness of self-gratification when it comes at the expense of another. Self-gratification is not always necessarily a bad thing. Learning to put others’ needs before our own can help curtail certain inner drives that can lead to behaviours to be regretted.

In regards to sin or perfection and how God sees you accordingly it might be a help to get over that and start seeing your so-called sin or perfection with regards to how your family sees you. I’m sure they are far more accommodating of your human foibles than your brain tells you God is. Once you start to conclude and realise the breadth of your family’s grace towards you, you may just start to realise where they get that grace from — God. Fact… God looks at you with MORE favour and grace than they.

What am I saying? Accept your foibles… work on those as you can and leave the rest to Him, BUT DON’T let the attaining of such consume you. He has grace for your life so stop trying to outperform yourself lest in endless self-perusal and ultimately frustration you wear yourself naught and your family loses the real dad/husband they cherish. Long story short — do yourself a favour and leave yourself alone.


[tag]davo[/tag] as someone who doesn’t believe in postmortem punishment, can you share your interpretation of Matthew 7:22?


Seconded… I’d love to have an answer this as that verse scares the hell out of me. Well, it does again. It had not for the last 3+ years, but now it does. It appears to be only directed to Christian’s only, however.


From my perspective, as I understand it… the KoH/KoG (they are one and the same Mt 19:23-24) was a then present and burgeoning reality being made manifest in Christ, so this is not necessarily a postmortem scenario per sé pushed out into the never-never. The fullness of the kingdom awaited in the parousia which didn’t require death for the reception of ‘rewards’ Mt 16:27-28 (what THAT actually looked like we’re not told, although Revelation seems to indicate some sense of spiritual fulfilment??] i.e., “to him who over comes will I grant…” etc).

I think Jesus was giving a stern lesson on ‘heart attitudes’ and the importance of this being reflected in one’s service to God, i.e., not being reliant upon certain outward show of works for kudos, such as “the first will be last” etc, and probably having certain Pharisaic practices in mind Mt 6:5, and so 7:23 seems to reflect following through with genuine actions what one has heard in words, IOW it’s not all just for show. You have to appreciate that IF “God is the Saviour of all men…” then THAT has to count for something.


From my stand point, though it does not really contradict davo, is that God did all he needed to do to humanity at the cross. Whatever was separating us from him (God) was totally taken care of at the cross. God loved us so much that Christ became our sin. All the anger that was portrayed in the OT was satisfied.

Now we have to ask ‘what will happen to the blatant sinners and scoundrels who seem to defy God and live relatively ordinary lives’ :astonished:

The idea of post mortem correction or punishment is intriguing, but does not fit the MO of a Loving Merciful God. :open_mouth:

I tend to believe the idea in the likes of Elizabeth K Ross, who says when we move from this life to the next, that we are moving from a cocoon to a freedom, you could say like a caterpillar to a butterfly, we will know all God has ever wanted, all god has ever expected, and how much God loves us. :smiley:


I’m inclined to agree, especially with this… “All the anger that was portrayed in the OT was satisfied.” Unlike universalism per sé I understand the likes of Jn 12:32I will draw all peoples to Myself” to indicate Jesus drawing upon himself ALL the divine judgement that stood over and against humanity… the word peoples ISN’T actually in the Greek text. It is the prior verse that sets this context of “judgement”. The reason “people” or “men” is inserted into the text is because the word “all” <πάντας> pantas is in the masculine, which can indicate ‘men’ but in the NT the masculine is used often enough to refer to something other than specifically “men” — examples:

Titus here above adds the specific “men” <ἀνθρώπους> anthrōpous after “all” <πάντας> pantas.


But davo, as a preterist surely you see Rome conquering Jerusalem as judgment.


There is one way, to break out of old thinking patterns. And that’s to do something, that forces you to think differently.

I suggest folks adapt, one of my good habits. Go see a good NERD movie. Or watch a good, NERD TV show. Like some of the AMC Zombie TV shows - the Walking Dead or Fear the Walking Dead. Or even Preacher.

Or see a superhero movies, a movie about robots or computers, a horror movie or a monster movie. Today I’m off to see Planet of the Apes 2017. Which got good user ratings, on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes.

Go see a NERD movie or TV show today. :wink:

In the meantime, here’s something Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr - shared today at newsletter: