No offense at all bro. I know Charismania can be pretty crazy and flaky. And it often seems that emotionally distrubed/flaky people get caught up in things pretty easy. And for some people, it’s easy to be emotionally manipulated and can give into suggestions easily. And it amazes me that God uses people as a vessel of His power and anointing though they be a complete mess. It reminds me of what was going on in Corinth, Christians misusing valid manifestations of the Spirit. Paul had to reign them in noting that if an unbeliever came in he would think they were crazy. And to me there does seem to be a connection in scripture between being “drunk” and being baptized in the Spirit. Acts 2, people thought the disciples were drunk, why? Likely because they were acting differently, possibly a little giddy. And then Paul says to not be drunk with wine but to be filled with the Spirit. And then from experience, when I first experienced the baptism with the Spirit I was so overwhelmed with the presence of God that it was almost like being drunk (though I’ve never been drunk on alcohol before). And since then sometimes when I sense a weighty presense of the Lord, I sometimes feel a little light headed. In all these things it’s important to remeber that the Spirit manifests differently through different people. I’m also reminded of a line from Avatar where the mother priestess said something along the lines of “It’s hard to fill a full cup.” When we come to the Lord empty, in dire need of Him, we are ready to be filled. And what I want to be filled with is His love for people. I’m always reminded that the #1 reason that is noted for Jesus working miracles and healing the sick is Compassion! And then Paul wrote his beautiful chapter on love (13) in the middle of discussing the manifestations of the Spirit (12 & 14)! Sadly, in charismania, this is often forgotten and we give into the show dynamic that the Corinthians were having problems with.
Sherman, that is an awesome testimony. 
It is not what seems to be happening at these gatherings where people are going up to the front and having some guy pray over them for God to heal them or ‘touch’ them (making them fall back it seems) and not getting healed. I have attended many meetings over the years where the guy seemed very sincere in his prayers for God to heal someone, and yet NOTHING ever seemed to happen like in your case. If anything had happened like what you relate, I would have been on my feet and jumping and shouting for joy.
Corpselight, I relate to what you’re saying. I nearly got deceived into thinking that all these experiences were from the same power and so God is working in other religions too, but once you look into kundalini, it doesn’t have much positive stuff going for it. It may even cause severe mental health issues whilst the kundalini is rising and you are ‘apparently’ learning how to harness it or rather get it more under control. If you look at the people in the three videos, they don’t look like they’re having positive experiences. They look weird, silly, blasphemous, demon possessed, if such a thing is real. Some look like they’ve gone mad and they look out of control or out of their minds. 
Basically the opposite to what Sherman has related. Your guy got his mind back. Maybe I’m classing every experience as dodgy or self induced. My only experiences of this stuff have been mostly negative and some neutral. It’s no wonder I suspect it all.
I met Jesus in a charamatic church. I came from a non-church home so I had no preconceptions. I can only speak to what happened to me when I received the Holy Spirit. I felt warm and safe and closer to God. I did speak in tongues but that was it, no shaking, or jerking or animal howling.I never lost control over what was happening to me. Nor was there any of those things occurring to any other members of the church. This was about 1972 and I was 16. Oh–and you recieved the Holy Spirit AFTER you accepted Christ. And it did not require any special person to lay hands on you. Sometimes the congregation would pray for you.
I left the church which was very hard for me because the church members were among some of the most loving, kind people I had ever met. But I just couldn’t accept the number of people they thought were going to hell. I guess I was a Universalist before I had a name for it.
Now, as to those films–l look at them both from my personal experience and my background as a registered nurse and a person with BP2. Personally, I do not see the Holy Spirit in them. I see a lot of mass hysteria and induced involuntary bodily movements. In pysch. land we call them extrapyramidal movements or tardive dyskensia and they are caused both by Parkinsons and as side effects of some of the medications those of us with the Bipolar(s) take. They certainly are not anything I would want to happen to me voluntarily. Once they start, they can be very hard to get stopped.
If the leaders of this movement are somehow tapping into the brain and causing damage which promotes these movements, they are not doing good to my way of thinking. Also, I don’t see how howling like animals has anything to do with worshipping God.
Do I believe people can recieve the Holy Spirit and feel it happening----yes. Do I believe people can be overcome by the Presence of God in worship and that miracles can happen----yes. But I also believe you know the Presence of the Spirit by the fruits of the Spirit. I would run away from any such gathering----fast.
Thanks for you input Lizabeth. You talk much sense. As regards the kriyas (the jerky movements) two guys at my old church had these. They’d be praying and then jerk forward suddenly. It seemed weird at the time, but then when I saw the documentary, I realised what it was. In most other respects they were great guys, lovely to talk to, reasonable, not at all weird. 
Sherman, it sounds like you approach these things sensibly! that’s cool. it reminds me that my own experience isn’t all there is to it!
God can definitely move anywhere He wants, especially when we want Him to
Wow, Sherman that is indeed an awesome testimony!
Some of you guys will recall we got into this whole charismatic healing thing pretty good a while back on this thread:
I’m not going to rehash all those arguments. What I will say is that I do believe God can and does heal people miraculously, but He doesn’t seem to do it very often. I’m sure every one of us here can come up with numerous examples of people they know who prayed for healing, or had others, sometimes whole churches, praying for their healing, without success. That everybody dies is a brute fact about this created world, and some people die in great pain and distress, perhaps after years of debilitating illness.
As we have discussed elsewhere, evil and pain and suffering are endemic in this world. For reasons none of us can truly discern, either God permits this situation to endure or He is unable to do anything about it (although I believe the former to be the case). Now I would say that the relative paucity of miraculous healings is more evidence of God’s ‘hands off’ modus operandi in His creation. It seems that He prefers a world where people and things can act freely in accordance with their natures, even if that nature is to be a cancer cell or a virus, to one in which everything is controlled in such a way that nothing ‘bad’ ever happens. And since I trust Him enough to believe in Him, I have to trust that ultimately He will be proved right – one reason, incidentally, why am a believer in UR.
As for Todd Bentley, the Home Secretary refused him a visa to bring his circus to Britain a few months ago. I think that speaks volumes.
Peace and love to all
Johnny
I can’t agree more with you Johnny.
I agree.
Sherman - great testimony! Thank you.
I was once encouraged to join a prayer line and noticed that some in front of me were falling down when the minister prayed with them. It came to my turn. He put his hands on my forehead and gently pushed, and pushed and pushed. I thought - if I don’t take a step back I’ll lose my balance - so I took a step back to which he responded “Don’t resist”, so I responded rather loudly: “Well stop pushing!”
I think more people were offended by what I said than by what he was doing.
I wonder how many times Jimmy Saville used those words ‘Don’t resist’? I think both are cases of abuse.
I’ve often been asked what I think is the difference between receiving the Spirit when one accepts the Lord and being baptized in the Spirit. To me it’s like the difference between drinking a glass of life-giving water and swimming in a river. The first gives you life and the second moves you. It’s the same medium, water, but different effects on the person. In like manner, receiving Christ, being born of the Spirit gives one eternal life, reconnects one with our Father; being baptized in the Spirit moves one and is usually evidenced by some manifestation of the Spirit, whether that be prophecy, praise, or speaking in tongues - at least that seems to be what happened in Acts.
Also, have you ever wondered what the difference between prophecy, gift of prophecy, and being a prophet are? I believe that all believers can prophecy (hear and share the voice/word of our Father). But not all are “gifted” in prophecy. And fewer still would be seen as prophets. It’s similar to baseball. We can all play baseball (prophecy), but some are “gifted”. And those who are gifted usually love the game, have a natural talent in it, and study and practice a lot, honing their skills (gifted in prophecy). And then there are a few who love the game, have the skills, and can help others hone their skills and provide leadership for the team - coach/prophet.
Also, it seems to me that Luke uses 6 different phrases in Acts to reference the “baptism with the Spirit” - 1) baptized (immersed) in, 2)receive, 3) come upon, 4)poured out, 5)filled with and 6)gift of. Received and gift of both highlight to me that this is something that is by grace, not according to how good we are. Come upon and poured out highlight to me that the source of this event is from outside ourselves, not something we can work up. Baptism/immersion highlights to me that it can be an overwhelming experience. And I especially like the phrase “filled with” because it reminds me of sailing. A sail boat can be powered far beyond the human power on board if it sets it sails and catches the wind. Some know how to set their sails and move forward. Others who do not can catch the wind sometimes, but often are just buffeted by the waves. And it reminds me that if the wind isn’t blowing, then I ain’t going!
Thanks Sherman for an interesting perspective (as always)
I believe what you say here should be the case. However I’'m perplexed that manifestations apparently are more prevalent in Christians with charismatic leanings but not in Christians who aren’t.
Many years ago I studied a great deal into this and could not understand why Christians from my background apparently weren’t receiving the Baptism of the H Sp whilst others from a different persuasion were.
The argument seemed to rest on: if you believed then you were open to the Spirit , if not, then you were quenching the Spirit. Yet I didn’t think this quite gelled with the idea that it was a gift of Grace.
Most of the Christians from my background viewed it as deception from the Devil at worst or self deception anyway at best. I didn’t find this satisfactory as I felt that God wouldn’t allow genuine seeking Christians to be led astray whatever their denominational background; but after some time spent in prayer and study I came to no conclusion and still haven’t, and I haven’t revisited the subject too often since.
Cheers S
The fact I’ve gone up to the front and experienced someone trying to push me back but not letting them (like Pilgrim’s experience) and witnessed some of these manifestations (that only seem to result in a phyical reaction e.g laughing and falling back- not the type of healing Sherman experienced), shows I’m trying to catch this wind. I didn’t immediately diss it. I gave it a chance. I prayed that God would show me if this was His Spirit. The first experience I had of this very real power, was back in about 1995. The power came on me and I couldn’t get up off the floor. My head was stuck to the floor and try as I might I couldn’t lift it up. This made me very frightened and so I prayed very fervently and sincerley ‘Jesus, if this is you, then please let me know it’s you and I’ll quite happily lie here as long as you want me to.’ Still the fear: ‘Jesus you can see I’m scared with this. Is this you Lord? Please give me your peace, that this is you’. Still fear. I prayed this about three times and still the fear and so I thought 'sod this, I’m getting up now, and so I did and went back to my seat and concluded this was not of God. I didn’t quite give it up after that. During the years people manifested this phenomenon and I would look on suspiciously but always pray, ‘Lord forgive me, if this is you and I’m being negative’. I’ve had people pray that I’d be baptised in the Holy Spirit- many times. (I thought, maybe I’m not getting this because you need to have it, to get it.) And so, many have prayed but no baptism seems to happen. I think I’d know if it had.
Sturmy, you say
and I understand why you think this. I thought this too, which is why I tolerated it for as long as I did, but then if God can allow evil things that happen to ‘Christians’ then is this any different? When I was 15, I was wagging off school one day. 
(I told my mum I felt unwell). I remember at this time, I’d been wondering about the purpose of life and if there was a God and had prayed ‘God let me know if you’re there’. A few days later, lo and behold He answers my prayer. Two lovely Jehovah’s Witnesses knocked the door and had answers for all my questions. They had the ‘truth’. I nearly became a Witness and went out on the preaching work. I got diassociated (not disfellowshipped, as I wan’t baptised, but it’s the same thing) for leaving and having boyfriends. Why did God give me a ‘stone’ when I’d asked for bread? He allowed me to be deceived and their deceptions (which I believe they’re not aware they are deceiving) have had a lasting impact on my life. I still carry lots of guilt and can’t seem to feel assurance that I’m ‘saved’. I know they do have a lot of truth, but they also have a lot of bad stuff. God allowed it. I don’t know why. He is allowing nutters like Todd Bentley to deceive people. 
Sturmy, what did you think of the documentary? 
Hi Catherine
I agree completely with the documentary and have been trying to warn people for many years.
My father was a minister in the AoG here in the UK and I remember a prophetic message at the annual conference back in the early 70’s that the Pentecostal movement was backslidden and needed to seek God’s face again. There were warnings given but not heeded. Everything that that minister prophesied has come to pass and the Pentecostal Church in the Uk is now in total dis-array and, I believe, in its death-throws. We have taken our eyes off Jesus and have become lustful for signs/wonders and emotional kicks.
The Torronto blessing came to my church and one woman who was ‘slain’ (and as far as I know - being slain in the Spirirt scripturally means you do not get back up ie Annanias ). This woman was in good health but from that day until this her health has gone completely. She has been ‘diagnosed’ with M.E. She is a mess and has done great harm to the church with a controlling spirit.
I have never seen any good come from these sorts of gatherings and manifestations. On the contrary, I have heard countless false prophecies, seen countless fake and very temporary “healings” and I am convinced that they have done tremendous damage to the church.
Sturmy (Hi) you ask why God allows it? I think the word ‘genuine’ is the important word in your quote. If a believer lusts for something not of God, He may well allow that soul to experience something which, long-term, may be an important lesson.
The OT is full of how God’s chosen people become dis-satisfied with their bride and go seeking pleasure from a harlot.
I agree completely with Pilgrim. I am in the USA so I think the timing here was different. I recieved the Holy Spirit (as I posted above) in an AOG church in the early 1970s. It was a small church and its members cared a lot about each other. Then later on, the charasmatic (Spirit Baptism) churches, along with a whole bunch of other Biblically conservative churches got themselves mixed up both in secular politics, becoming known as ultra right winger members of the Republican Party and in supporting some television “evangelists” to the point that said “evangelists” became millionares.
And then there was the whole ‘Gospel of Prosperity’ thing which is about as far from Jesus’s teachings as you can get.
I wonder if they know how many people were chased away from Christianity in general by these antics?
I still say you know the Holy Spirit by the fruits of the Spirit.
Christians should certainly vote, but to push their members to vote one way only is not from God and you can’t force Christian “morality” on nonChristians via laws. And all Christians do not have the same morals anyway. Ironically these are some of the same people now complaining about Muslims trying to force their laws on communities.
They are right to oppose this and many other people also oppose but it is still ironic.
I too was raised under cessasionist theology. When I was 24 though I was exposed to believers who believed in the BHS and shared their testimonies. Knowing these people were being truthful, I decided to study the issue for myself. And like with infernalism, the more I studied the case for cessasionism, the more it slipped between my fingers like sand. In short, after 3 months I came to believe it was possible they better understood scripture on the issue than I did. And then God intervened in my life and I experienced the BHS. It was a life-changing event for me, one that even changed my perspective on scripture, again, similar to the lights coming on in regards to UR.
I’ve found that there are several factors involved in someone recieving the baptism with the Spirit.
- Believing that such is for today and for them. If a person does not believe that such is for them then they will not know to lift their sails to catch the wind of the Spirit, though they be buffeted by the waves pushing their boat.
- Participation in a community of faith that believes in and practices the BHS. It is very difficult for people to embrace something that their community of faith does not support. And recall the cases in Acts where it was the prayers of the community of faith that positioned them to be filled with the Spirit.
- The sovereignty of God also comes into play for it is evident in scripture to me that God intervenes in some people’s lives without their desire or consent. I’m reminded of Paul and of Cornelius and his household.
- How people are predisposed to view the BHS based on their previous experiences with flakes and phonies. Paul notes how the flaky practices of the Corinthians would hinder unbelievers from believing. This is especially true today with all the recordings of flaky practices and flaky doctrine related to the BHS. People see stuff on the internet and assume errantly that all Pentecostals and Charismatics are flakes and phonies.
- The desire of the person for the BHS. People who really want to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, seek it, study it, and make any changes they feel necessary to live in it. Blessed are the hungry!
These are just the factors that come to mind immediately. There are others, I’m sure. The BHS is neither evidence of spiritual maturity or holiness or correct theology. And I believe that many things we do and say as believers are inspired by the HS though we do not even recognize it. I believe that God would have all people saved and all the saved living in the reality of the baptism with the Spirit!
I too have experienced ministers trying to push me over, but I’ve also experienced being overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord. I’ve been in meetings where, like in the videos though not quite that extreme, where people were laughing and crying and some were jerking, and I didn’t feel anything at all. On the other hand, I’ve also been in the middle of a celebration of launching a new fellowship with over 700 attending the first service. It was a joyous occasion but as I looked around the Lord spoke to me saying “It could be full.” I understood that it could have been full that day “IF” we’d have done the work of reaching out. It could be full next week IF we’d reach out with the love of God. And the group could dwindle to nothing IF we did nothing. I was broken with God’s love for people. Waves of grief washed over me. Everyone around me was worshiping and rejoicing and I was under the seats balling like everyone I loved had died. I was a wreak, broken, couldn’t talk. Someone asked my wife if I was ok. Knowing me, she said, oh yea, God’s just dealing with him about something. He’ll be fine. I was overwhelmed with God’s love for people and grieved that we/I do not give our lives loving others into the kingdom.
So are the events under discussion from God or of the Kundalini spirit? I don’t know. I tend to think it’s like the outpouring of the Spirit that happened at Corinth. It was God moving, but a lot of immaturity, flakyness, some phonyness, and seeking attention was mixed in. God genuinely moved in some people, but for others it’s at best an expression of selfishness, and for some possibly demonic oppression (if they are already submitting to that).
We need discernment, but/and I find it challenging to judge a whole movement. And I’m often reminded of what Seargent Kilrain said in the movie Gettysburgh, “I’ll take men one at a time. Any man that judges by the group is a pea-wit.” Also, I respect men like Oral Roberts, Peter Waggoner, and others, though I don’t see eye-to-eye with them on some things, I believe they love God and love people. And being I have not been involved any length of time with any of the fellowships that are fully embracing that movement, I find it challenging to judge the fruit of such in individuals lives.
Well, anyhow, thanks for reading my thoughts. Blessings on you all!
I appreciate everyone’s input on this complex topic. My friend who laughs in the spirit, (allegedly) says that the experience really helps her to let go of some of the hurt she may be feeling (she’s a single mother to five kids). Maybe something is going on by God, that seems silly to my intellect. Then again, maybe something in her subconscious is causing her to do this, in order to let out pressure from worry or something. I know of phsychiatric conditions where the person may have uncontrollable crying. I don’t love my friend any less. She believes it’s the Holy Spirit, and it’s up to God to put her right, if it isn’t.
Sherman, I was going to read the rest of the thread before responding to your testimony, but there’s too much.
That is so exciting! You brought tears to my eyes – I would love to be involved in something like that. But I think you may have touched on a key element to the whole “charismania” thing, and that is this: Have we in the church become too insular, “ministering” to one another (which is good, certainly) and forgetting that the anointing for healing and miracles was specifically offered to us, His disciples, as an adjunct for evangelism – signs following? We have to manufacture “miracles” and “moves of the Spirit” because we aren’t seeing it on the streets. And since we, most of us, know that the great bolus of what we “see” in church is, well, just isn’t real – it isn’t really happening, and we know that, it’s hard to “work up” the faith to believe that when we lay hands on that half-drunken street person and command his mind to be healed, it’s not only possible but promised that our Father will confirm the good news of the Kingdom with signs following.
I have also had the experience of being “slain in the Spirit” which, I’m convinced, is for most people a voluntary yielding to what is expected (Fall down; we promise someone will be there to catch you so you won’t be hurt. If you’re wearing a dress, don’t worry; the nice church lady will have a cloth draped over your legs before you reach the floor.) The only time I ever felt anything even approaching “overpowering” was once when Kenneth Hagin laid hands on me. It was like a white kind of “power” rising up in me, but before it got all the way to my head, he moved on and it subsided. I tried to yield to it, but you know, it just wasn’t happening. But I’ve had what I would call visions and I’ve seen miracles (from my own hands, which I knew to be miracles first-hand) – instantaneous miracles and nearly instantaneous, and in a couple of serious situations. If it hadn’t been serious I would probably not have had the nerve to act.
So, I DO believe in the power of God, and yeah, I even believe He does weird things to people sometimes (but not to me, thus far). I can sense His presence when I turn my heart toward Him. Yes, I could lie to myself (and convince myself, too) and make reasons why that stuff didn’t happen or was a coincidence and would have happened in any case, and I’m only deceiving myself and so on – or that it’s some kind of snake spirit-of-power seated a couple of inches below my navel and not really God in me at all. But I never could get into the laughing thing, let alone the shaking and shivering. God just never did that to me, and for a long time I thought there was something wrong with me, that I couldn’t let go and yield to Him like the others did. Now I wonder whether they weren’t faking it in the hope of making it, too. 
Although I’m sure it was real for at least some of them.
Anyway, my thoughts. Sherman, I want to go out prayer walking with you, Bro! Nothing like that ever happens to me.
Blessings, Cindy
Cindy- I share your wonderment at Sherman’s testimonies and would willingly join you two on that prayer walk if we lived near by. I’ve been thinking about all these signs and you have mentioned what I’ve been thinking: real signs and miracles accompanied the followers of Jesus as they shared the good news. It seems that these signs and miracles served to ‘prove’ that what these ‘Christians’ were telling people was true. Shouldn’t that be the case today? You and Sherman are very blessed to have witnessed real miracles but I have only seen the dodgy ones e.g people saying they don’t need their walking stick, and then next week they walk in with said walking stick, or someone who had some internal problem that you can’t see, but is now better. We never see the real change that Sherman experinced with the drug addict. I do believe that God can still do these kind of miracles through people, but maybe not enough people have the right attitude or faith to be able to allow these miracles.
Cindy, yep I think you’re on the money when it comes to why we do not see more miracles. I’m reminded that the number one reason that is recorded for Jesus performing miracles was because He looked on the people and had compassion on them. He saw their deepest needs and was moved to meet those needs. He saw the needs of the lost because he walked among them and did not isolate himself.
Another miracle I saw happened when I was at a camp for the physically and mentally handicapped, in FL. I was a counselor, helping the young pastor who set it up. One morning we woke early and were saddened to learn that it was expected to rain all day. As we talked and prayed together under the outdoor shelter, as the sun rose we could see a huge black thunderhead coming our way. It would have ruined the day for the campers so we prayed and then told the storm that it could not come near the camp. Well, it continue towards us, but then we watched it split and surround us, and stayed that way all day. Most of the day the wind was a breeze with a cooling mist, but no rain. It was probably the most comfortable day the whole week we were there. We had a great time.
On the other hand, in chapel that evening the Lord had something to teach me. During worship I stood in the back watching the campers and praying for them. One young man raised his hands and staired up at the ceiling and just sat there transfixed. He was one of the least responsive of the handicapped there. I didn’t even know if he knew what was going on around him, though he did seem to respond to music with some movement, like raising his hands that night. Anyhow, as I was watching him, I started feeling so sorry for him, pity, thinking he’s missing out on so much. The Lord spoke to me though and said, “Hey, don’t feel sorry for him; you have no idea what I’m showing him!” And I had the sense that God was opening up the heavens to this young man, blessing him with a spiritual revelation that I can only imagine, angles, maybe even the very throne of God, or the Lamb. Talk about an about-face! I had the distinct feeling that I was the one missing-out, that needed to be pitied! After that I began to see the campers in a different light. Yes they had physical and metal challenges in comparison with what is “normal”, but not only do we not know all that God is doing in them, but we don’t even know what is “normal”. What God showed me freed me up to love and respect the campers more when I didn’t even know I wasn’t loving and respecting them as much as the deserved.
So I saw a miracle in that it did not rain on us all day, but the greatest miracle was worked in my heart when I came to see others who were different from me in a greater light, not as deserving my “pity” but as wholly loved by God and blessed in ways that are beyond my comprehension. We all have struggles, challenges, simply because of being born in this present evil age, but is it worse to be crippled in body or in our soul. I find that those with the least physical challenges often have the most difficult spiritual challenges - like pride and self-righteousness which plagued, enslaved my soul for so many years.
20…“**Blessed **are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 **Blessed **are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
**Blessed **are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22 **Blessed **are you when people hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.
23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.
For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
24 “But **woe **to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 **Woe **to you who are **well fed **now,
for you will go hungry.
**Woe **to you who **laugh **now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 **Woe **to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
What worries me about the story of the rich man and Lazarus is that I’m a “rich man”! So blessed in many physical ways, and yet such a mess deep inside! One thing that gives me great hope though is that over the last few years, since coming to believe in UR, the number of people who have been speaking evil of me has greatly increased! Hallelujah!!! Wahooo!!!
On my grave marker (if there is one) I hope that it can some day truthfully be written - “He loved the hell out of people!”