The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Have all husbands been defiled?

Theology Eschatology
#1

I suppose the following passage from revelation can be interpreted in a figurative sense. But many believe in the 144K as being an actual group of perfected saints who are yet to appear, or who have appeared in the past, or who continue to appear throughout the centuries ad domini (as JWs do).

They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14: 3,4 NKJV)

Now if the writer had written, “These are the ones who were not defiled with women” as a complete sentence, one could suppose that he meant that these ones did not consort with prostitutes or live a promiscuous life. But that clause at the end of the sentence “for they are virgins” suggests that this is the reason and the only reason they were not defiled with women—that if they had not been virgins they would have been defiled with women. This is the way I understand the writer. Maybe you don’t understand it this way.

I would be happy to read your thoughts on the matter.

#2

I know a lot of people read it figuratively. I read it literally, but I always start there, until the Holy Spirit shows me(or I think he has ;o) that it is figurative. It could be the first fruits of the first fruits…like the wave offering… some think this company and the manchild, who is “caught up to God’s tghrone” are the same. Since they are of the twelve tribes of Israel I have wondered if they are the saints who rose at Christs death when the veil of the temple ws rent…

And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.…Mt 27

If Jesus is our high priest, ever making intercession for us before the throne, perhaps these are there with Him, making intercession also. I see this possibility in hebrews 12, the heavenly assembly…

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

I see this heavenly tabernacle as perhaps being assembled outside of time as we know it, seen through a glass darkly, wheels within wheels… but back to 144,000 as a first fruit of the first fruit…In Leviticus 23, interestingly enough, when the Israelites came into the promised land, they were to offer the first sheaf of the first harvest

9 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the Lord. 13 Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the Lord for a soothing aroma, with its drink offering, a fourth of a **hin of wine. 14 Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.

That is what I am referring to, since Jesus, as firstborn from the dead, ascended leading “captivity captive” and/or “captives in His train”(Eph 4:10,11) so that “He might fill all things”- maybe took with Him a “first sheaf” of the coming harvest(first resurrection) which will be made up of we who are “a kind of first fruits of creation”. Maybe He took that first sheaf to be a company of intercessors.

Like David as a type with the “three mighty men” and then “the thirty” and the 300 or whatever it was, I cant remember, the Lord has the “two anointed ones”, the “24 elders around the throne”, the “144,000”, the martyrs “under the altar”(How long O Lord"- also intercessors perhaps- “Come quickly Lord Jesus”) and then the whole company of the first resurrection- the revelation of the sons of God at the redemption of our bodies(we who have the first fruits of the Spirit) when the Lord “whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoke of by all the prophets since ancient time”(Acts 3:19)

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

These are just some thoughts assembled over the years of my interest in eschatology and the language of it(and the 144,000 always intrigued me), which, in my opinion, even when it is figurative gives insight into solid spiritual realities(By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible)

As far as husbands being defiled, I remember Paul said something about the husband and wife not denying one another “except for a short time for the purpose of prayer”.

Even as Jesus and John the Baptist were celibate for reasons of their calling…I don’t think husbands are defiled but for the purpose of that calling conjugal relations might 'defile" it- do some aspect of celibacy we dont yet understand, like those who Jesus said, “make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God”… Paul said in regards to this, “But each man has his gift and it is better to marry than to burn”

This also comes up in the widows covenant. “Don’t take any widows under the age of 60 because after a short time they will want a man again and will break the covenant”… if a widow was placed within the care of the church she was to devote herself t service and prayer.

To me this is the bride “coming down from out of heaven”, the holy city, and also the “habitation of God in the Spirit”…built of living stones, Chrst Jesus being the chief cornerstone.**

#3

I think it is most likely “metaphor”… not so strange a thing for an apocalyptic book, and speaks to the purity, i.e., single-mindedness of purpose as linked with the work of the firstfruit saints, sealed (7:3) ON BEHALF OF the following “multitudes without number” aka “all Israel**+**” (7:9). The firstfruit saints were Israel personified and perfected (true Israel Jn 15:1, 5; Isa 5:7; Gal 6:16)… hence the figurative 12x12x1000 aka 144,000.

Also… I think there may be a touch this happening in the present passage that Paul makes mention of here:

That said, it is important to view these verses in their entire context and especially not forget Paul’s precautionary “according to my judgment” of verse 40.

#4

I’m thinking along the same lines as what Davo has mentioned. I myself think that the writers of the bible expressed themselves by using a lot of figurative language. Speaking of the 144,000, my guess would be that these were the true prophets or maybe the leaders of Israel who throughout their history, did not worship other gods but kept the word of the one true God.

#5

Yea, I understand that view. I mean its not like there will be an actual dragon, or a woman with twelve stars on her head in the night sky standing on the moon either.

But I think it(144,000) is representative of a group of people, just as the twleve stars are likely representative of the twelve apostles(or twelve patriarchs depending on your view of that) and I think it is very likely, LLC, that as you suggest they are faithful servants from the history of Israel, the remnant. These things are written to open our eyes to spiritual realities in the now, primarily, just like the word pictures and visions of the old testament prophets (tho many of them had dual effect- communicating spiritual truths and also yoked to coming events).

Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand(near, at the door).

Daniels statue with the head of gold(chapter two) is a good example, revealing both the spiritual and political nature of the empires to precede the kingsom of God, as well as the actual order in which they would appear.

This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands–a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

The rock cut out of the mountain (I call you Peter and upon this rock I will build my church) is destroying the kingdoms of man now, altho it is not always visible.

Maybe corresponding to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream statue of the kingdoms of man ( the image of the beast speaks and causes fire to come down Rev 13) is its opposite in Rev 12, the giant messenger with his head in heaven(Christ -Eph1:22,23) and clothed in the clouds(surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1) with the little book in his hand(the gospel) and standing with one foot on the land and on foot on the sea… a picture perhaps of the rock that will fill the whole earth, the kingdom of God.

I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; 2 and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land; 3 and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; (Rev 12:1-3

And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.(Eph 1)

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders(Hebres 12:1)

All things seen through a glass darkly, but they are written, so I think they are meant to communicate to us about Today(if you hear His voice) more than the future.

“The Kingdom of Heaven is like the yeast a woman used in making bread. Even though she put only a little yeast in three measures of flour, it permeated every part of the dough.”

It is happening now, on the way to a future culmination/fulfillment.

#6

Thanks to each of you who has expressed your thoughts on this matter.

In the matter of the 144K, it is specified that there would be 12K from each tribe of Israel. Somehow, that specification does not seem to strike me as symbolic.

#7

Why not? 12 x 1,000 = 12,000, itself multiplied by 12, seems eminently symbolic to me. If this number were intended to represent a literal number of people, wouldn’t it instead look something like this:

11,209 from Gad
13,117 from Naphtali
9,656 from Issachar
etc., for a grand total of 147,382?

#8

I didn’t mean the numbers didn’t strike me as symbolic Geoffrey. I meant that the 144 K seems to refer to real people, rather being symbolic of something else, and these people seem to emerge in some way from all 12 tribes of Israel.

#9

Yes I’m inclined to agree.

In his book ‘Days of Vengeance’ David Chilton notes on Rev 7:4-8 the following…

This 700+ page book is a free downloadable pdf file.

#10

That would be true, and as I understand it most likely indicative of the firstfruit saints sealed ON BEHALF OF “all Israel”. The firstfruits guarantee the acceptance of the entire (all) harvest… thus with Israel redeemed (promise fulfilled) could the world then be reconciled. In this accord I read this as follows…

#11

I see. That makes sense. :slight_smile: I agree that the 144,000 refer to real people. I see them as all the Old Testament saints.

#12

That is one of the most readable and interesting books I’ve ever read.

#13

I agree that they symbolize real people. The number may or may not be symbolic- only time will tell. I dont think it is obvious either way… I have seen the numerical breakdown Davo proposed from several sources in the past. It makes sense, but 144,000 is a lot of people as well, considering what is said about them.

#14

The verse immediately following this presents a couple of additional hurdles which would seem to exclude most virgins (of either gender) from this special group. Still going by the NKJV: “And in their mouth was found no deceit [footnote says that certain manuscripts of the Greek read [i]falsehood instead of deceit], for they are without fault before the throne of God [another footnote says that the same manuscripts omit the [i]before the throne of God clause].” So included in these special guys’ list of qualifications is that:

  • They are undefiled with [not [b]by?] women, for they are virgins and
  • They’ve spoken no lies, for they are faultless.
    I’m thinking that the only place to find such individuals is among unborn babies!

Back in the days of yore I read a commentary of this book of the Bible which says that this passage is an equal opportunity offender, because it excludes women but also most men (somewhat imprecise equality there but go figure). Going by Jesus’ standard of adultery per Matthew 5:27-28, the likelihood is that there’re plenty of virgins who have been defiled with women “in their hearts.” I’m not so sure, contra the aforementioned commentary, that the qualification of non-defilement with (or by?) women necessarily excludes women from the special group in view here. I’m basing my doubt of this on Romans 1:26-27, in which Paul seems to suggest that women are capable of contaminating/defiling [though he doesn’t use such a term here] other women just as much as men can contaminate other men, as well as the fact that the gender of the 144 khiliades [thousands] is never directly mentioned in the Apokalypsis [correct me if I’m wrong].

I would agree that this is the literal meaning of the passage: that they are uncontaminated with/by women specifically because they are virgins. What this, as well as their numbers and precise identity represents in particular, I’m willing to concede could be symbolic of something other than a literal collective of absolutely no more and no less than 144,000 male (or both male and female) virgin descendants of Israel who are devoid of lies and of fault (in general or specifically “before God’s throne” [a throne which I think most would agree has to be symbolic for us mortals who cannot actually see or conceive of such a thing “literally”; and especially if we don’t believe that God is really a linen-swathed nobleman seated in a giant chair any more than Jesus is actually a seven-horned bovid in another giant chair]).

Nonetheless it still begs your very pertinent question of whether all husbands in general are consequently defiled. Based on what other Scriptures have to say on this matter—such as Eaglesway’s reference to 1 Corinthians 7:9, and the thesis in Hebrews 13:4 stating that the koitē, “bed” [from which we derive the word [i]coitus], in marriage (which “is honourable among all”) is the diametric opposite of defiled—I’m inclined to think that John of Patmos must be making some other kind of point about women and virginity when he puts forth such a radical assertion in our passage of Apokalypsis. Most likely he is deliberately employing the use of shock value, to which ancient artists working in the poetic and apocalyptic genres are well-accustomed.

One particular case study from Paul’s writings is worth noting for our present purpose. According the NKJV, in 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul expresses his zealous desire to save the Bride in Corinth for her one betrothed husband, in order that he, Paul, might be able to present these believers as “a chaste virgin to Christ.” This is the same group of people whom, a year or more prior to this, he has already admonished in 1 Cor. 5:1 with the charge that “It is actually reported that there is porneia [unchastity/ harlotry] among you the like of which is unheard-of even in the nations!” If this is the case then Paul must surely be aware of some mechanism by which an unchaste fiancée might regain her chastity, in order to be ready for her nuptials with Christ. And after all, your Apokalypsis passage does say, two times, that these 144K peeps have been redeemed, from the earth as well as from out of humanity. Maybe, among the numerous impossible events that take place in this book, they weren’t honest, fault-free virgins before but now they are.

Consider, moreover, that the climax of Apokalypsis, to which all of the book’s events are leading up, is a marriage banquet. In the cultural context to which the scroll was being written the implications are that the betrothed couple is finally going to consummate their union that day. The prophet Isaiah, whose oracle is a major source of Apokalypsis, says to Jerusalem (also towards the end of his own prophecy and likewise to a city which is about to be renewed into indestructibility), that the same way “the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you” (Ch. 62, v. 5). Yes, I do think all the innuendo is very much intentional.

Among the VIPs at an Ancient Near Eastern marriage feast were the friend(s)/companion(s) of the bridegroom, roughly equivalent to best men and groomsmen in modern Western[ised] societies, who remained with him at all times and even brought him to the bridal chamber when it was time for the consummation. They would then wait right there outside the chamber in order to verify the tokens of the bride’s virginity, which generally consisted of a bloodstained bedsheet. They could therefore be called upon as witnesses to attest to the bridegroom’s integrity and the bride’s chastity. “Friends of the bridegroom” is an expression by which Jesus referred, on at least one occasion (Mark 2:19 & Luke 5:34), to His disciples, who followed Him most everywhere. Now it so happens that this particular Bridegroom’s closest friends numbered twelve men. In the 2nd verse that you quoted (Rev. 13:4) the 144K are said to be “the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” Perhaps this is an indication that the seven-horned Bridegroom is so illustrious and prestigious that His wedding party is a virtual army of thousands. (Samson’s party was only thirty-strong [Judges 14:11] :stuck_out_tongue: ) At the bride’s Unveiling (“Revelation”) the twelve Apostles, who we know to be representative of the tribes of Israel, have become a square times a thousand of their original number: a perfect[ed] Israel, as davo has noted.

On top of all of that, there are two more anomalies in Apokalypsis that might incline us to suspect that the 144K are more symbolic than they are a rigidly literal army of that precise number of individuals. The one is that, at their introduction in Ch. 7, the Esphragismenoi (the term that John uses for the 144K in v. 4 and repeats like a musical refrain 12 times in vv. 5-8, meaning the “Stamped,” i.e. “Concealed Using an Official/Royal Seal-Stamp [like a document, hidden from eyes lacking the proper clearance level],” thus: “Con-Sealed” :wink: ) are explicitly said to be sampled from all the tribes [or “branches”] of the sons of Israel. But then as he goes on to enumerate them, one group of 12K at a time, we find that these are not exactly the original 12 tribes after all. Dan is missing and has been replaced in v. 6 by Manasseh, who is in fact only half of the tribe of Joseph, the other half being Manasseh’s brother Ephraim. But Ephraim isn’t listed here either, instead Joseph is (in v. 8). So now there are 1.5 tribes of Joseph + 0.0 tribe of Dan. The only other instance of the exclusion of one of the twelve from such a momentous occasion is in Moses’ speech of blessing at the end of the Torah shortly before his death, at which time he makes no mention of the tribe of Simeon. On this occasion he prophetically multiplies Manasseh by “thousands” and Ephraim by “ten thousands” (Deuteronomy 33:17). I don’t know if the fact that Dan means “Judge” should be read into his absence in Apokalypsis or not.

The other strange occurrence is also at the Esphragismenoi’s introduction in Rev. 7, where we will learn that John is never at any point a literal eyewitness of the enumeration of the 12K members of each Israelite tribe. He only hears them being counted, like perfectly geometrical grids of men drawn up into battle formation, and they are all unequivocally ethnically Israelite. In v. 9, when he does look to behold what he’s been hearing about, what he actually sees is, according to the Aramaic Bible in Plain English, “many multitudes which were impossible to count, which were of all people, generations, nations and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, and wearing white garments and with palms in their hands.” The group of people is neither a strictly regimented selection of the crème-de-la-crème nor an Israelite army at all; rather it’s what would appear to be the entire world on its way to a festival, and brandishing leaves instead of spears. A similar phenomenon occurs two chapters earlier when one of the 24 <another multiple of 12> senior citizens presbyteroi] in the sky directs John to “Behold the Lion of the Tribe of Judah,” but when he looks, what he sees is a slaughtered baby sheep lately returned from the clutches of death (Ch. 5, vv. 5-6).

#15

Well put as usual, Alak! :smiley:

#16

:smiley: Got to thinking on some of the aforementioned paradoxical power imagery after checking this chap’s blog: liferemixed.net/2012/11/27/chris … ctiveness/

#17

I found, buried in a pile of books on the other side of the world when I recently went there, that I still have the commentary I mentioned afore, simply entitled Revelation, written by J. Ramsey Michaels, for The IVP New Testament Commentary Series. I’d read this when I was much younger and much worse-read on the Apokalypsis. (By then I’d really only read it in the Good News Bible, which I realised, upon growing up, that it’s much more of a paraphrase than a translation… Well, maybe the same should actually be said of most English [and other language] Bibles.) Having reread it recently I see that I might not have had the necessary background on the source material to appreciate the commentary for its insights, which I think are of at least some note. Michaels interprets “following the Lamb wherever He goes” as dying for the same reasons as—or for the sake of—the slaughtered Lamb.

This is from the section [pp. 169-172 of the 1997 edition] expounding upon vv. 4-5 of Ch. 14:

(A couple of sections before this, Michaels elaborates a little upon that oft-ignored component among the characteristics of the Esphragismenoi: the fact that they have the superpower talent of learning a song which no one else is able to (in v. 3). I wonder if any of the different groups, since the time that this text was written, who’ve claimed to be the 144K have ever boasted of such a skill or if it’s just one of those conveniently underplayed details.)

#18

Yes very true AND it needs to be noted that such non-feminist type language is to be seen as a natural given considering their ancient world/culture was fully patriarchal; Jesus was in fact quite the revolutionary for his day in his engagement with women etc.

Indeed, John likewise in his gospel gives Nathaniel this glowing tick-of-approval with his…