Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a “sorer” punishment than death by Moses’ law, i.e. stoning:
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very “sore” or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.
Interesting! The translation I quoted was my own, based on the knowledge of Hellenistic Greek that I picked up in over three years of formal study, and many subsequent years of personal study.
I don’t recall having previously noticed that the Concordant translation of that verse is similar.
Did you attend a Bible college for those three years?
If only Koine Greek or Biblical Hebrew (or even Latin) were offered in high school in the early 1970’s. Back then French was compulsory. Later one could opt for Spanish or German instead.
My first exposure to Hellenist Greek (koine Greek, “New Testament” Greek) was at a Bible School that I attended for one year at the ages of 20.
At St. John’s College, a part of the University of Manitoba (where I received a B.Sc. degree with a major in mathematics and a minor in philosophy), I took first year Greek again (language learning is not one of my strengths). I also took second year Greek at St. John’s. After that I took a summer refreshment course at a Bible College that actually represented a full year of study. Most of my learning was done independently in subsequent years.
Does Hebrews 10:28-29 also provide a case against endless annihilation?
If the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.
Origen, I don’t think this passage addresses annihilation—endless or otherwise. What it seems to be saying is that if those who broke the Mosaic law deserved to die without mercy, then those who spurn the Son of God deserve even worse.
The next two verses seem to explain something:
The word translated as “vengeance” might better be translated as “judgment.” As I once heard a Christian leader say, “All of God’s judgments are remedial.” So God will make all things right some day, by correcting the rebels. This correction may have to be quite severe in some cases. God’s correction can be a thing to be feared—just as a child may fear the correction of his earthly father, even though he knows his father is loving and kind.
Did i coin a new phrase? I’m wondering how i came up with it. I recall speaking with JW’s who believe when a person dies they essentially cease to exist. They are no more, obliterated, annihilated. Until the resurrection when God, in JW theology, re-creates them from His memories & the dust of the earth. Then, for the wicked, He judges and annihilates them again, i.e. second death. Only this time it is permanent, endless. Hence endless annihilation.
The first entry on a search engine brings up this definition of “annihilation”:
"complete destruction or obliteration.
“the threat of global annihilation” "
And from Webster’s:
a : to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains
b : to destroy a considerable part of Bombs annihilated the city. The enemy troops were annihilated.
c : to defeat overwhelmingly : rout annihilated the visitors 56–0
“Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).”
"Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God’s love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[3] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God’s presence. Thus those who elect to reject salvation through their free will are eternally destroyed because of the inherent incompatibility of sin with God’s holy character. Seventh-day Adventists posit that living in eternal hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin, as the Wicked will perish as the Bible says in the Lake of fire.[4][5][6][7] Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.[8]
Annihilationism stands in contrast to both the traditional and long-standing belief in eternal torture in the lake of fire, and the belief that everyone will be saved (universal reconciliation or simply “universalism”)."
In often discussing the destiny of mankind i encounter those who refer to Scriptures that speak of “destruction” in support of their view of Annihilationism. I point out that even when people are destroyed, such as those of Sodom, that does not mean they are endlessly destroyed or support the theory of Annihilationism, since they will be restored to life again at their resurrection (in the case of Sodom). For Annihilationism to be proven true from the Scriptures, Annihilationists must prove not only that at least one person is annihilated, but that it is an annihilation from which they never come back, i.e. endless annihilation ;
Interesting… I’ve heard something similar around this board too.
As for “annihilation” — I see that as touching ONLY the physicality of man; IOW it speaks ONLY to the cessation of one temporal life… nothing more and nothing less. As I see it… it is used in Scripture with regards to certain divine judgment/punishments, but again has NOTHING to do with postmortem existence, or the lack thereof, i.e., it is purely pertinent to this realm of existence — and then the lack thereof
Just trying to understand your thinking, Davo. Here is what I think you are saying (if not, please explain what you do mean). I am actually writing more than what you said in order to make it understandable to myself:
Nah I’m not saying any of that, as in, you’re extrapolating beyond what I mean.
The ‘annihilationist’ doctrine is pertinent to the postmortem position — my understanding of “destruction” or “annihilation” stops at the border of physical life, period. Thus to say a… “physical human being is annihilated at death” is to have the cart before the horse, IOW… death is the annihilation of one’s physicality AND, and this is important… said annihilation or destruction as I see such in scripture are reflections of divine judgement executed upon a certain person/people. Thus annihilation/destruction as I use it is in kind with judgementin this life and doesn’t venture into any implications beyond the veil of death.
There are way too many examples of such destruction/annihilation facing the wicked, unrighteous or persecuted, but here are just a few…
IOW… it is my understanding that annihilation speaks of the comprehensive nature of critical or negative judgement i.e., its totality.
Actually, that’s all I meant by the statement. I suppose I would have unambiguously expressed your view, if I had worded it,“a physical human being is annihilated by death”
Some Scripture from the first 2 chapters of Hebrews:
Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all
Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty
Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
The fact is, all sinners are “serial sinners”. Sinners have the nature of sinning. That’s what they do.
Sins and sinners don’t get any worse than the kind mentioned in Heb.10:28-29. It speaks of those who blaspheme the Spirit. Their future punishment is compared in Hebrews 10:28-29 to those who were stoned to death under the law. Clearly being stoned to death is nothing like endless torments or annihilation. Therefore those are false teachings.
The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a “serial sinner” such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.
Saul may have had it in his heart to murder all Christians. Just because he may not have had the opportunity to murder thousands of Christians would not make him any less guilty than those who did kill thousands (as in, e.g., your World Trade Center example). There are many people in the world who would kill many more than a mere two thousand if given the power & opportunity.
Therefore the WTC argument is flawed. For not only are they assumptions projected into the afterlife regarding laws that never had any such thing in mind, they are also assumptions based on the outer appearances of the OT judicial civil law of Israel, like man’s national governmental laws, not on how God judges men, as revealed especially in the New Testament, according to their hearts.
The worst sinners are worthy of recieving what is comparable to stoning (Heb.10:28-29). Others deserve lesser punishments, if any, for their sins in this brief life of a few days, years or decades.
Even then, all of God’s punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice’s sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
LK.18:9 To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.…
I should imagine basic grammar does… “endless annihilation” is an oxymoron. 