Thanks for explaining your position.
I am not much interested in arguing the point either. It’s not a hill to die on.
Praising God the loudest has nothing to do with position. Hitler, presuming that he was the most evil man to live, may be relegated to the lowest seat in heaven, but still may be praising God the loudest. Position and praise are not mutually exclusive.
Well thus far your contention that… “the most evil people on earth being elevated to the highest glory before God, forever” just doesn’t stack up scripturally, as you claim… in fact your OP you defer to and nothing you’ve provided since demonstrates any scriptural content pointing to or indicating that… “the most evil people on earth being elevated to the highest glory before God, forever”. You have pointed out hierarchy BUT no one is contending against that.
All you have pointed to is an assertion indicating your opinion as to a potential fault per sé you find with universalism, well fair enough, but that just leads me to ask again… Is your perception of universalism in this matter actually accurate?
I don’t disagree with you, but that really wasn’t the point of my post.
I didn’t demonstrate Bible verses for my point, nor did I said I did. I said I could, but the subject is complex so it’s easier and much less time consuming for me not to.
I did provide explanation of a mechanism for the issue I’m presenting in a way that it could be understood and extrapolated by people in this forum. If someone can react to the OP as presented, which I think gives enough meat to be understood, and give an opinion, comment or an argument, great, if not, ok. I’m interested in reaction and I accept what’s available.
You have made two replies but didn’t provide anything except empty doubt. Empty in a sense that it’s just doubt, without substance to it. In effect, “is it so?”
Maybe you can focus on some specific issue you have, explain your position and show me where’s a mistake or maybe even impossibility for what I’ve written. Then I could concentrate on that and respond.
I had in mind your particular words here… “To me it seems to be the most logical and scriptural outcome,…” and as such somewhat doubting, ATM, your conclusions, as per your emphatically stated or made… “much more precise” — and so am wondering if providing said scriptural evidence might thereby clarify/justify your extrapolations etc, i.e., you are claiming the case so I’m wondering if you can better explain the case according to the texts seemingly bearing the outcome you posit.
“Much more precise” is related to the main claim itself, not to extrapolation or explanation. That’s what I meant in response to Bob. I can “better explain the case” but I would appreciate much more if you would focus on something here, give your position, so we could go from there, as opposed to me explaining everything from ground up. I actually don’t have much will to do the latter and I’m fine with leaving it as it is.
I don’t have much to add to my initial query as to your apparent problem with universalism other than to say I am unaware of any scriptural evidence backing your… “I claim that the issue is about the most evil people on earth being elevated to the highest glory before God, forever,…”. I was just seeking textual clarification on that — it appears things will remain “hidden” and I’m ok with that.
Here’s a direction you can take for a study:
- Suffering is highly valued by God, if not the most highly valued work a person can “do” here on earth
- Scripture leads to conclusion that most evil people, if universalism is true, would go through suffering/purging of highest order, for aeon, before they are ready to enter Heaven
Again, I don’t want to debate much, so just one argument here - the highest and most valuable work ever done by one who walked on the earth was suffering of Jesus on the cross, which paid our sins.
But not all suffering is equal, according to the Bible. The suffering that counts the most is apparently that experienced for doing what is right, not that experienced for doing what is wrong.
1 Peter 3:17 “For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.”
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That’s one interpretation based upon one verse in isolation. It can also be concluded, in light of universalism, that what evil unbelievers suffer during lifetime is for wrong, which leads them to first death, but when they are put in place of fiery purification, under God’s supervision for aeon, where they cannot do evil as they did on earth, it makes for better kind of suffering which leads to ultimate good. There are other interpretations as well.
And that’s not taking into account exclusive habituation in God’s fire for an aeon. That is to say that even if your interpetation is absolutely fully correct, there is a variable of sheer magnitude of suffering/purification in God’s fire that makes up resulting value as well.
But it is hard to argue, I would say impossible, for any complex view based upon small selection of verses from the Bible, let alone one, so maybe it’s better to at least add some kind of disclaimer and not present it to look as, “Here’s the verse, that’s it, case closed.” Aside from that, good addition to the thread.
But it’s not just one verse. See 1 Peter 2:18-23.
“Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.”
Also see Matthew 5:10.
“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Same thing, as I wrote in previous reply. You are making an interpretation out of one passage now, not out of one verse.
It can still be interpreted, in light of universalism, that what evil unbeliever does during lifetime is punished during lifetime in various ways, without favor from God, culminating with first death, but under God’s fire for an aeon, character of what this person does changes and quality of suffering changes, and finds favor with God, resulting in admission of this person to Heaven.
And again, there is a variable of sheer magnitude of suffering/purification in God’s fire for an aeon that makes up resulting value as well.
You are presenting an interpretation, but not a proof. All I say is to be frank with it and present it for what it is. (Just for clarity - even listing verses without comment is interpretation, since it’s an act of deliberately taking out piece(s) out of a whole and making a new collection. By the way, that’s why collections of poems, for example, are considered to be new copyrighted work, although each poem in collection is copyrighted work by itself…)
It’s not just one verse (i.e., 1 Peter 3:17); it’s not just one passage (i.e., 1 Peter 2:18-23); and it’s not just one author (i.e., Peter, Matthew, and now James). See James 1:12.
“Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.”
Yes, and there are various crowns, and you cannot claim to understand what’s the full, actual value of each crown, what’s the full, actual difference between crowns, how are they related between each other, and whether all types of crowns are even listed in the Bible.
I see no evidence in the Bible that those needing the fire to be purged would end up being the most perfected beings God ever had and will create, and they would be higher in stature than any prophet, apostle or saint. What evidence exists for the effects of purging falls far short of supporting your thesis and seems instead to indicate the contrary: those in need of purging will suffer a loss. I call your attention to 1 Corinthians 3: 9-15.
“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
A metaphorical equivalence is made in verse 9 between God’s building or field and each person. The building or field represents each person and some essential things about them, things they are trying to build or grow. These essential things could be their identities, their beliefs, and their resulting natures, for example.
These things about each person will be revealed by testing on the day (i.e., judgment day) for soundness, and some persons will be found wanting. Those found wanting will suffer loss. The use, in verse 15, of the word loss also suggests that it is persons and such things as their identity, their beliefs, and their nature that are the buildings to be tested on judgment day. These are essential things that belong to persons and stay with them. If these things are found wanting, the faulty parts will be removed and those affected will suffer loss. The word loss argues against the building as equivalent to our works, as some think, for how could works be called a loss to only some persons when they die? Everyone’s works are lost to them at death. But persons and their identities, beliefs, and nature are expected by Christians to live on. So, faulty parts of these things truly could be said to be a loss as a result of God’s judgment.
Thus, this passage provides no support for the idea that those being purged will be elevated. In fact, it states in no uncertain terms that those thus saved will suffer a loss.
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The relative values and numbers of crowns are not the point. The point is suffering for doing good is more highly regarded than is suffering for doing evil. And that runs contrary to your argument because those being purged as a result of judgment are suffering for doing evil.
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The way you are stealing messages directed to Christians (Acts 11:26) is as absurd as pagan nation in days of Moses getting ahold of Torah (law, feasts, blessings, cursings, prophecies…) and nonchalantly acting as if everything written in there is like it’s directly spoken to them by God. That would be pridefulness of highest order.
Because if God wanted all nations to have Torah at the time of Moses, all nations would have Torah at the time of Moses.
A more humbling attitude is preferred.
When Jesus said to a Canaanite woman, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs,” she did correctly and humbled herself, saying, “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Startlingly, gentiles who believe - Christians - get huge blessings through revelation Paul gave.
Paul’s epistle you are quoting from, 1 Corinthians, is for Christians: “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours.” They are alive people who believe in Jesus Christ through Paul’s gospel.
Judgement you are quoting from is not the same potential judgement+suffering+purification of dead unbelievers.
You are nonchalantly taking what’s given to Christians and giving it to dead unbelievers, like it applies to them as is. But it is not on you to be a cavalier here. Jesus was teaching something when He said, “It is not for the dogs.”
Not to mention that it’s bad reading of the Bible. Potential suffering in God’s fire for aeon, and everything that happens in there, is uniquely specific not-spoken-about category which prohibits one to make parallels as easy as you do. I would guess you cannot stand strong 2-hour toothache, but you are quick to conclude how suffering for an aeon under God’s fire is not valuable in God’s eyes because they are evil. Well you are evil too, saved by God’s grace.
If you are truly open-handed, you should act more like the Canaanite woman, so when you read what Paul reveals to Christians you should pray to God humbly, privately and with fear: “God, please give these blessings to all, extend this kind of mercy, even more so if that’s Your will, to all, not just those who, while alive, believed in gospel Paul preaches and to whom the message is sent, because we were once dogs too.” You should not just assume that it is so, without humbleness.
P.S. There is nothing in the crown verse you quoted that speaks about one group getting crown for doing good while the group that goes to aeon to suffer doesn’t get any higher crown. You are presuming how God looks at what potential suffering in His fire for aeon is, what changes happen there and how He values them, as it is a specific category that’s not spoken about in the Bible. And again, the sheer volume of exclusive potential suffering one goes through in God’s fire for aeon is a factor that can certainly be important in establishing final value (5 times 10 is 50, but 0.5 times 1000 is 500, even though 5 is.ten times larger than 0.5).
That, and not seeing that God’s final goal even requires such a hierarchy, nicely summarizes my problem with HenP’s thesis. It’s no wonder that he finds that this ‘problem’ is “hidden” to everyone.
OK, let’s assume it is directed at only Christians (even though I don’t believe it is necessarily the case, considering Paul’s many uses of the terms each man, no man, and any man in this passage when he could have used simply you throughout to avoid ambiguity in communicating that his reference group was just the Christians he was addressing). The ones whose building is built with inferior materials, e.g., the ones who have inferior beliefs, will suffer a loss. Their suffering a loss clearly does not elevate them above the ones who constructed their buildings with proper materials and so suffered no loss. That is so because the loss suffered as a result of the correction by fire must, as a given, be a loss, not a gain.