The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Holy, Holy, Holy (Defeating The Problem Of Evil)

Theology Philosophical
#1

In arguing about the problem of evil and suffering I use to try to place God in a human category and say He must behave a certain way. What I failed to take into consideration is the holiness of God. Holiness when applied to God not only refers to moral purity but also to everything that sets God apart from His creation and His creatures. We are to imitate God in certain ways but there are also ways we cannot be like God. For example: God is self-sufficient, God is all-powerful, God is all-knowing, God is infinite in wisdom. These are just a few ways we are not like God. To try to be like God in every way leads to pride and arrogance.

The Bible says God is love. It doesn’t say He is ONLY love. And while it says God is love it’s a Holy love. This is no mere human love. For the Bible says God is Holy, Holy, Holy. The Bible also says God has a Holy hatred as well. So, it’s my contention that the problem of evil and suffering doesn’t even get started. For God’s love is a Holy love. This isn’t the same Omni benevolence that we try to ascribe to God. For God has a Holy hatred as well. Nonetheless, God is completely Holy and deserves our worship.

Many times I’ve wondered why God would allow suffering and bad things to happen. It is good to question and try to figure things out. But I think when we are dealing with a Being who is infinite in wisdom and knowledge we must realize our limited capacity to understand and grasp things and all His reasons for doing what He does. God is in a category all by Himself. I also don’t see God as something to try and figure out. Rather, I trust in His infinite wisdom and goodness to run things no matter what they may look like at the present moment. I believe He brings beauty out of ashes. For I trust He causes all things to work together for good. His business is His business. My job is to trust Him, clean my own house, and help others as I pursue to love and seek justice.

People who complain that God could have created things differently fail to realize that the laws of physics are based on symmetries and those symmetries are based on mathematical necessity. God would have to make those mathematical truths false. Hence, God couldn’t have created things differently. He is a God of truth as well as infinite wisdom and perfection.

It’s my belief that God’s judgments are eternal. His anger will not turn back until He accomplishes the desire of His heart - the salvation of all. He destroys the old person forever in hell and makes new by His grace. Christ is the first fruits. The second fruits are those chosen by grace in this lifetime. The third fruits are those who receive no forgiveness in this age or the age to come. They must suffer eternal destruction of the old person in hell. God then makes them new. I base my understanding on how God judges in the book of Isaiah. It is said to last forever but He does make new. All will eventually confess Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father. Even Satan and his angels are reduced to ashes as they lay in hell forever and then made new. That is, God’s Holy Wrath destroys sin and the sinner in hell. They are then made new by grace and brought up into more of God’s love and grace. God does sometimes have a Holy hatred towards sin and certain sinners. This is why He destroys them and makes them new as He is driven and motivated by His holiness.

Isaiah 32:

10 In little more than a year you will shudder, you complacent women; for the grape harvest fails, the fruit harvest will not come. 11 Tremble, you women who are at ease, shudder, you complacent ones; strip, and make yourselves bare, and tie sackcloth around your waist. 12 Beat your breasts for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine, 13 for the soil of my people growing up in thorns and briers, yes, for all the joyous houses in the exultant city. 14 For the palace is forsaken, the populous city deserted; the hill and the watchtower will become dens forever, a joy of wild donkeys, a pasture of flocks; 15 until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest. 16 Then justice will dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness abide in the fruitful field. 17 And the effect of righteousness will be peace, and the result of righteousness, quietness and trust forever. 18 My people will abide in a peaceful habitation, in secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places. 19 And it will hail when the forest falls down, and the city will be utterly laid low. 20 Happy are you who sow beside all waters, who let the feet of the ox and the donkey range free.

#2

I have a slightly different and simpler take on this. I think the point of creation is that God wanted there to be something other than himself, in the same way that someone in a new house invites their friends so that everyone can enjoy the experience.

But if there are minds other than God’s they can make destructive choices. This is what the fall is all about.

If there is no possibility of destructive choice the created being is not other than the creator. Unless you can do something God didn’t expect you aren’t free. If you can you can make ghastly errors.

God has arranged that everyone will find their way home in the end.

However we are currently at the crash site, not in the first class lounge. We are not doing what God intended, sitting back with drinks and watching the movie. We are being winched up out of the life rafts. That is what salvation is about, savig people from a ghastly situation.

Of course we will all get to the destination, even though it’s a rather rough ride. That’s why we see evil in the world.

#3

Holy Hatred! Sounds like an oxymoron. Sounds even a bit like cussing.
Where does the Bible say that God has a Holy Hatred? I did a search for “holy hatred” in several translations and didn’t find it. Or do you deduce this from the OT passages which speak of God’s judgments on people?

Do you understand this to be a universal statement? In its context, it seems to be that God works everything together for good within the hearts and minds of those who love God!

*Now we know that to those loving God, God works everything together for good, to those being called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew He also pre-appointed tdo be conformed to the image of His Son in order that He might be the firstborn of many brothers.

Now whom He pre-appointed, He also called, and whom He called, He also made righteous, and whom He made righteous, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)*

So God works everything together for good within His people, right from their pre-appointment to their glorification!

#4

The Bible tells us that God doesn’t change in His character. This is true with His judgments as well. He’s the same yesterday, today, and forever. God destroys completely with His holy wrath. But He also makes new. We see this in Isaiah 32:10-20. For the Bible to be consistent and for all of the passages to make sense we are driven to a Universalism. It is one that keeps the holiness of God at the center rather than the love of God. Yes, God is love but He is not ONLY love. He also hates certain sinners along with their sin. The Bible clearly says God hates certain sinners. They receive no forgiveness in this age or the age to come. They are destroyed under the holy wrath of God and then made new by His Spirit of grace. My version of Universalism is different because it emphasizes the holiness of God. According to the Bible holiness is God’s central attribute. It emphasizes this by declaring: “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty”. Everyone will eventually love Christ. For all will confess He is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Psalms 5:4:

God hates and abhors the wicked and destroys them.

#5

I disagree with your statement that God is not LOVE only…but also something else. He is pure LOVE. The term “holy” refers only to his separateness from the creation, and is not anything other than His LOVE.

But God’s LOVE is not a wishy-washy, sentimental love that has no requirements. God requires MUCH from people. He will do whatever it takes to render them righteous. He has already provided the means through the death and resurrection of His Son.

I agree with you about destruction, if you mean the God destroys the old person in order to bring forth the new. This may be illustrated by the refining of gold. The gold ore (its original form) is destroyed in order that the pure gold may come forth. But the gold itself is not destroyed; it cannot be destroyed by fire.

I don’t think you mean that the wicked person is destroyed in the sense that his individual consciousness is destroyed, annihilated forever. I fully agree with your statement, “They are destroyed under the holy wrath of God and then made new by His Spirit of grace,” IF by “They are destroyed” you mean their wicked natures are destroyed. But if you mean the individual consciousness is destroyed and is replaced by a new,holy person, I must strongly disagree.

#6

Michael
Thanks for your topic.
I tend to agree with Paidon here as I would view that God is the very Essence of Love - there is no standard of love that stands behind God that He measures up to but He is the Standard, the Source it is His character, His Nature. Consequently any action that God performs towards us is always as a result of His love. His judgements even if at times considered by us as harsh (the exercise of His wrath even at times) is not pitted against His Love it is as a result of His Love.
This is one reason I find Universalism so compelling - that God’s love ‘demands’ the reconciliation of all His creation to Himself.

Paidon,

Appreciating that Holy both in the Hebrew and Greek pertain to separateness but seemingly always in a spiritual sense; I wonder if you or anyone know whether the word was ever used in a more secular sense either in ancient Hebrew writings or in Secular Greek writings of NT times.

Cheers S

#7

As I already stated in the O.P. holiness when applied to God doesn’t only mean moral perfection but to everything that sets God apart from His creation and His creatures. The Bible doesn’t say God is love, love, love. But that He is Holy, Holy, Holy. This was to emphasize God’s holiness. Holiness is His essence not love. The Bible speaks of the love of God. But it also speaks of His hatred as well. Everything about God is holy.

Holy love

Holy justice

Holy wisdom

Holy intentions

#8

Separate, separate, separate. Different, different different. Whatever you might conceive God to be, you can be certain God is not that.

But doesn’t this make it quite impossible to worship or love God, or even talk about him? How can you love that which is Utterly Other? It’s quite impossible. Let’s all become deists.

But I believe in God as revealed in Jesus Christ. Jesus was not separate, but one with us. He wasn’t different, but the same. He wasn’t holy, holy, holy, but he was unclean, unclean, unclean. He touched corpses, healed lepers, fraternized with sinners. He was nailed to a tree. He “became sin”, for us.

In Christ, God is now my blood-relation. He’s there somewhere, on my family tree. Imagine that. God himself is my 64th cousin, 98 times removed. That makes me literally part of God’s family. An heir sharing royal blood, an aristocrat, albeit a very minor one.

#9

Yes, Christ revealed some things. But:

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever. Deut. 29:29.

This is why I stated in the OP that there are certain ways that we are to imitate God. But there are also ways we cannot be like God.