The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Hope: a great “fallback” position when discussing UR at chur

Practices Christian Living
#1

As it has been my habit (and pleasure and joy etc) to have spiritual/theological discussions with my friends and fellow church goers over the years, it seems the inevitable is happening. I am simply unable to hide or disguise my true convictions about UR so it spills out in all kinds of circumstances. Just can’t help it. I’m not overt and dogmatic and bombastic about it; just discussing, asking questions, and raising some of the sorts of ideas that we talk about all the tie here.

And no surprise, when people figure out, eventually, the meaning of the words I’m using and the concept (UR) behind them, it dawns – and they get worried. Bob’s not as orthodox as we thought; Bob’s gone off the deep end; Bob clearly has veered off into “fringe” theology. And so on.

Well, this serves as quite a jolt for some. And I’m not really trying to jolt and jar and surprise folks. But I do want them to ponder the idea on it’s merits instead of just knee-jerk reject it – as so commonly happens. I’ve often said that people gravitate to the theology that answers the most questions for them. So I tell them why their formulations (that also used to be, in many instances my formulations too) no longer answer my questions and why UR does.

Still, it’s a step too far for many. So, I’ve taken to presenting myself as more of a hopeful Universalist rather that the dogmatic one which is closer to my real place. And it’s surprising how many are willing to accept the hope that UR is true! I mean it seems unkind and unChristian NOT to have the hope in God’s Grace being so large that the net “catches” more “fish” than we ever imagined!! Maybe even ALL of them!

One way or the other, ONE of us is going to be surprised in the hereafter and God shall need to take us aside and explain why we were wrong. To me He’ll explain that “yes, some really ARE beyond My Grace” and to them, “yes, My Grace really is big enough to overcome even the most recalcitrant sinners resistance.” It is VERY hard for me to conceive of a reality whereby it is necessary for some to be lost eternally; however it is quite easy to conceive of a sort of Love which necessitates and predicts the eventual salvation of all. So even IF one suspects UR is wrong, it’s still just fine to HOPE that it is true. That’s an important step I think.

What about you? How goes YOUR witness to the realities of UR??

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#2

Really good point, Bob! (Yes, I’m back, at least scantily.)

I tend to be rather dogmatic because I’m trying to be proactive and defend my ground before anyone is able to even give a rebuttal, but you’re very right. People do respond much better to hope than to just an immovable statement.

And I’m not being completely accurate. I guess I’m kind of a p*ssy because I don’t talk about this stuff irl really. I did with my parents, who left the room in kind of a huff, but other than that it’s mainly been on the internet. Otherwise I’ve been pretty subtle. I left some really subtle comments with hidden meanings (if you follow the line of thought) on the facebook of a guy from my old church who was crying out about the condition of the lost and judgment day. I may post that here later, I’m running out of time.

#3

Well, the couple who runs the ‘single/young professionals’ class at church are always glad to see me, and think pretty highly of me (and bug me to come back when I’m taking off hiatus for writing). We’re going through GosMark, and I was able to tag a bit this past Sunday while discussing the Legion demonaic. (If anything, the teacher did more than I did, though, since he was the one to point out the demon appealing to the mercy of God, whereas I was the one to stress the Legion/Mob ending up back in the swirling depths which they had been trying to avoid!–but of course, they weren’t repentant for their sins, they were only trying to clever their way out of being punished for their sins. So the result is hardly surprising.)

We’ll see what happens when we get to 9:49-50 (much later at this rate), although there are several other things in Mark along this line worth commenting on as well.

(Meanwhile, a friend in the seat next to me was impressed at the coincidence that I’m working on a study of all Gospel testimony on God’s salvation and condemnation, and that I had started with the GosJohn prologue which he had also recently read as part of his own far more informal study beginning on the topic. We had a talk about propitiation in the NT which clearly surprised him. :wink: )

Otherwise, though, I’ve had to be out of theological contributions for a while (having to do other things). {sigh} want to be back already…

#4

Hi Bob,

That’s very interesting, and I’d agree with your approach. I really don’t get much opportunity to speak of UR–and I’m not looking for opportunities to bend a conversation in that direction. Usually at church, I’m keeping track of little kiddos, and talking to other mom’s mostly about kid related stuff–but my husband is Mr. Chatty–and we’re often among the last ones out of the building, LOL–so I sometimes get to join some interesting discussions.

I am rather miffed at myself for missing a recent possible opportunity. We made a brief stop–on our way somewhere else–to say hi to the parents of a friend of ours. She had a friend visiting her who’s son had recently almost been killed in a motorcycle accident and who’s other son had just died from some illness. So in telling me of her friend’s situation she made the comment: “Thankfully, he was a Christian–otherwise there would be no comfort, only consolation.”

LOL, I’m not very quick mentally and really couldn’t think of any reply to this (actually, I found the statement somewhat shocking–not sure why), but later I wished I had reminded her that when all things pass away, hope is one of the unshakeable things that remain.

I’m not dogmatic about UR–been there/done that with other ideas in the past. The definition that most fits how I perceive that word is:

But I am convinced. Paul says, “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

I don’t think we are meant to be creating division and strife over opinions of doctrine. If the details are that important, we’d have been given a manual of systematic theology–not the miscellany of writings that we do have. There are only really a very few things which Christ taught plainly. Those things are indisputable–the rest must be sought for earnestly by those who really want to find, and must be learned from the Spirit of God and Christ. (I don’t discount studying the scriptures, but I put that as secondary because the Scribes and Pharisees knew the scriptures, but they didn’t know God. And Jesus said, “If you are taught of God, you would know if my words are true.” The first Christians had no New Testament.)

Believing that UR is true does not necessarily make a person any better than one who believes in ET. (Although I do believe I have become a better person as a side effect of believing in UR–it’s not the ‘belief’ itself, but how the belief changes one.)

Universalists are capable of being arrogant/proud/evil just like others–it’s not doctrinal facts that make the Christian, but doctrinal essentials–that is, does the person emulate Christ, and follow the teachings of Christ–love your enemy, forgive those who wrong you, have righteousness of spirit (not law), do your good works in secret (not for the praise of men), be a servant, etc…

We are meant to be doers of righteousness and ambassadors of reconciliation.

There’s my ramble of the day, :wink:
Sonia

#5

Sonia,

You’ve cheered me up after a bad morning :smiley:

#6

I’m glad! And I hope the rest of your day is going better!

Sonia

#7

Quote from p. 10 of Bradley Jersak’s book HER GATES WILL NEVER BE SHUT

… and this is quoting Hermann-Josef Lauter…

**“Will it really be all men who allow themselves to be reconciled? No theology of prophecy can answer this question, but love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7). It cannot do otherwise than to hope for the reconciliation of all men in Christ. Such unlimited hope is, from a Christian standpoint, not just permitted but commanded.”
**
TotalVictory
Bobx3

#8

UR is not something i’ve been able to bring up. my dh is a devout and theologically traditional Baptist. we attend a Baptist Church, and the mode of understanding there is that all who die without being born of the Holy Spirit are destined to eternal hell fire. i’m a woman in that church, and as such, don’t have much say in theological discussion, or debate.

but my husband did say something pretty intersting a few weeks ago. he said, speaking of an old friend, “you know, he was a really great guy, a better Christian than most Christians you meet. he was one of those where you hope that, somehow, you’ll see him in heaven”. other times he’s expressed the belief that there must be “some way” for otherwise righteous non-Christians, or for those who never heard the Gospel, to be reconciled to God. basically, the instincts of his heart and a love for his fellow man win out over harder doctrines.

we may never be on the same page there, and i personally do believe that while the present “hell” is a temporary place akin to Purgatory, that some will or may be lost on the Last Day. perhaps the most practical way one can live out a faith or a hope in UR is to treat all men and women with God’s grace, love, hope, patience, and mercy, knowing that God desires to reconcile that person to Himself, forgive them of sin through His Beloved Son, and walk with them as their God, forever. and that He is perfectly capable of doing this, loves this person dearly, and desires for us to do the same. no human being in un-redeemable.

#9

Thanks for that Grace… (and welcome too!)

This tactic is more valid and useful that even I imagined when I wrote this some months ago…
Just today in church I was speaking with my pastor about a matter and, one thing leading to another. He’s seen as very “liberal” and inclusive in his theology; yet we’ve discussed UR and he can’t quite bring himself to it… (better to keep your job I tell him!!) And we spoke about the wonder that God seems not only willing, but ABLE to reach down and speak to those not of our flock (so to speak) and further of the ability of even those “pagans” to “see” what God is about (for example see 2 Sam 14:14!!)

And in this context it was perfectly natural admit that no, I’ve really no idea just exactly HOW God will redeem all. But I am so confident that where sin abounds GRACE (cool name!) abounds even more, that it seems quite rational to HOPE for the salvation of all.

Being a “hopeful Universalist” is indeed a very appropriate place for a Christian it seems to me.

Blessings,
TotalVictory
Bobx3

#10

Bob ~

i agree completely! i, too, am hopeful. not certain, but hopeful. Christ does say that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men to Himself (John 12:32), indicating that through Him, through the cross, all may be saved, as Christ promises it Himself.

Ephesians 1:9-10 and Colossians 1:19-20 seem to speak to that hope, too. i’m glad your Pastor seems willing to consider UR! what is your church like, and what is he, your Pastor, like?

as to the pagans recognizing God, and His power, there is a book i have heard of called “Eternity in Their Hearts”, written about non-Christian indigenous peoples who have remembered something of the True God, sometimes in remarkable and Biblically parallel ways.

have not read it yet, but if you can find a copy, you might enjoy it.

#11

All this talk of “hope” reminds me of Romans 8:

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that* the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Amen!!

Grace, that book “Eternity in their Hearts” is on my want to read list.

I’m off to church now, :sunglasses:
Sonia*

#12

Sonia ~

you get to go to church on Saturday evenings? lucky!

Romans 8 is interesting… many tend to see “creation” as simply the natural, non-human world, but men are also part of God’s creation, no? there’s a very vital, fresh spirit of hope, salvific joy, and expectation in the writings of the earliest Christians. no doubt springing from an expectation of Christ’s soon return, and with it the purification and renewal of a very corrupt, dangerous, difficult world.

the link below has a wealth of beautiful, remarkable quotes. it’s amazing to see how prevalent universalist hope, doctrine, and faith were among many early Christians.

tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm

#13

Bob,

I believe that all humans and angels will eventually get saved from hell. But I believe that the total sum of biblical teachings is clearer about the possibility (hope) of all getting saved compared to biblical teachings about all definitely getting saved. Also, the Bible never teaches that all people automatically get saved. So I believe it’s best to focus on teaching the possibility that all can get saved from hell while all need genuine faith implying repentance to get saved while God literally never gives up on anybody.

I suppose that people who believe that genuine faith is required for salvation would have an easier time understanding the possibility of all getting saved compared to dogmatic statements about all definitely getting saved.

#14

:laughing: Yes–our church does 1 Sat evening service and 2 Sunday morning. It’s much easier for me than trying to mobilize all the kiddos (not to mention the husband) on Sunday morning. :wink: Plus it’s a smaller congregation, which I like.

We just started the book of Ephesians, which is great from a universalistic standpoint. I’m looking forward to it. We only covered Eph 1:1-2 today, but I read ahead, and noticed the verse that says, “I pray that the eyes of your heart may be opened, so that you will understand what is the hope of His calling…” I don’t think I ever particularly noticed that ‘eyes of the heart’ phrase before…interesting to ponder that… and there’s “hope” again, too.

I like the way you put that. Yes, I agree that men are included in “creation”. :wink: It’s puzzling to me that I used to just ignore that fact–I’m not sure how I managed that.

Sonia

#15

Hi Jim:

This is interesting to me: what would you say if I told you that “I believe the bible is clearer about the fact of eternal damnation than it was about the likelihood that God’s will really is accomplished on earth?” (You recognize those, or course, as Talbotts propostions #3 and #2 – #1 being that it is God’s will that all should be saved…)

Universalists, by definition, believe God’s will IS to save everyone and His will IS accomplished. Now go and figure out why the very biblically supportable proposition #3 is the one that needs to be refigured.

Or what if I said the bible is “clearer” that God’s Total and complete (see eg 1 Cor 15) victory actually means that NO one is lost forever than that when God says death was defeated forever by Christ only means “from now on”; death gets to hold it’s former winnings.

I mean if God IS victorious through Christ over death (we believe He is) why not insist all are therefore eventually saved? Faith and repentance and conversion are of course necessary.

I know though what you mean and have found myself drifting towards that stance more and more. Far too many see the dogmatic assertion that all WILL be saved as somehow license to do whatever one wants. So we must also present, somehow, the gravity of resisting the pull of grace – which is always greater than the pull of sin. That’s Romans 5:20 isn’t it? Sad reality then, maybe, that hell also serves as that factor which serves as constant reminder that there ARE consequences and there IS judgement. So God mourns again and again “WHY would you choose that route WHY will you leave Me?” Yet He does let go eventually. Lets go however not to eternal torment or annihilation (as I grew up thinking) but to the remedial cleansing punishment of hell.

Here’s the problem I used to have; believing as I did that God would eventually destroy the reprobate sinner. I can’t imagine an all loving God actually DOING this, but I must trust Him to do the right thing. So I’ll wait, in trust and faith, and see how it all works out.

Here’s the problem I have now; now I believe just the other way around. God WILL save everyone eventually even though I have NO clue how He will reach all those recalcitrant and rebellious hearts. So for now I have no idea how He’ll do it, but I’m incredibly hopeful that He will. Understanding that if it turns out to be some other way, some other paradigm, He will explain it to me then.

So sure: there is HUGE room for hope that God saves all (eventually) though there may also be some doubt; given the enormity of the task. I think the bible covers the whole entire range of those dynamics just as it does the entire range of Talbott’s 3 incompatible propositions…

Here’s a thought that I’ve been working on lately Jim: that it is perhaps irresponsible to present the doctrine of UR “too early” because too many, on hearing that truth, abuse it and take license. Rather, it is to be dispensed to those believers mature enough to have developed such a hatred for sin that they properly realize there can never BE any such license. So yes, sin IS such a painful and dangerous fire that it is foolish to “play” with it EVER.

Still learning, growing brother!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

PS: Grace… My pastor, and church? Wow! He is so open and inclusive and our church is so diverse and “brown” (we know what that code word means right?) and has been an incredible base and place for growth and worship for me and my family. And he actually encourages and blesses the likes of ME! a rebel thinker who takes no mans answers for anything! He’a about the perfect combination of “Liberal” and “Conservative” (recall Jesus said MY kingdom in not of THIS world!) thinking you could find…

#16

Bob ~

yes, i get the “brown”! that is awesome! :laughing: to find a warm, loving, personable Pastor who loves his flock and keeps a good balance… sounds like a fantastic church! you are blessed, brother.

#17

Bob,

My view of universalism differs greatly from Talbott’s view. For example, I believe:

  1. God is omnipotent.
  2. God wills the salvation of all people.
  3. God lovingly enables people to resist his will.
  4. God literally never gives up on any person.
  5. Nobody will continuously reject God literally forever.

I also reject Talbott’s view of unconditional election in Romans. For example, I believe that Romans teaches that faith is the condition for election.

#18

Good morning everyone. Concerning the OP and Hope being a good “fallback” position; I couldn’t say that for to me it would be deceptive because the complete truth is that I trust in, have faith in God that all shall be saved. When I was first studying UR, just telling people that I was studying it and finding information that seems to support it was enough to get a lot of people upset with me. And frankly, due to the negative reactions of others that I had already experienced, I was reluctant to even admit to myself that I had “crossed over”, that I had come to believe that scripture affirms that all will ultimately be saved.

I was like this for a couple of months and then one day in worship the Holy Spirit spoke very clearly to me saying, “STOP Lying!” From this I understood that I was to 1) stop lying to myself and admit to myself that I had crossed over. And 2) I was to stop lying to others saying that I was “only studying” UR and instead I was to openly confess that I had come to believe in UR. Well, this started a firestorm in my life that is still burning. I’ve been removed from the board of directors of a ministry I helped launch. I almost lost my full-time job with a ministry I’ve been with almost 20 years. The church I’ve been serving in excluded me from membership. People in my extended family have accused me of being demonized, demonically decieved. And even my marriage has been on the brink of destruction. Some times it costs to be honest.

And I’m certainly not dogmatic about UR; I simply share that this is what I have come to believe and I even note that I recognize that I could be wrong and this is certainly not what is believed by most Christians. Of course, I also share some of the easily verifiable information that has led me to believe UR. This often causes people to question their beliefs and many people just cannot stand to question their beliefs; it makes them very nervous inside and they then go into defense/attack mode. It’s very sad, and all I’m doing is being honest about my beliefs and why I’ve come to believe as I do.

Well, all I can do is trust in the Lord that “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.” and trust that some day, hopefully soon, that God will turn this all around for good for me and all whom I love. Though we’re attending another fellowship for now, I believe that I’ll eventually be planting a church that is open to members having a wide variety of beliefs concerning systematic doctrine. The foundation for membership will be simply faith in Jesus, love for God and one another, and practical living right based on that love and faith. Members are ok to believe whatever they are personally convinced of. And of course the fellowship will likely have a strong UR leaning because I’ll openly share my beliefs and teach scripture from that perspective. This is all “Lord willing” of course. I’ve had many plans that proved out to not be the “Lord’s will”.

Thanks for reading my rumblings.

#19

James:

I’ve thought, along the way, that your views have differed somewhat from Talbott. It is very helpful and clarifying for you to so succinctly list your differences as you have. Very helpful and thanks! for your transparency.

Sherman:

Thanks for the testimony for it is very appreciated.
When I talk about hope as a “fallback” position it’s not at all that I feel myself less convinced or compelled by UR, but rather that I feel more comfortable in offering my fellow Christian conversant this option as a point on which we may agree and converge.

Yes, I like you find myself utterly convinced that UR is the proper outworking of a correct concept of God’s love and goodness and grace. Others however, being on the “way” and less certain, often find the stark assertions of UR rather imposing! No problem I can say with assurance: it is a right and proper step to “hope” that the audacious claims of UR “might” be true…

You all are awesome!!

TotalVictory
Bobx3