The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How can modern men believe in a creator God?

How can modern men believe in a creator God?

Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, — even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.

Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.

How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?

Regards
DL

Over the years my faith has grown increasingly through personal experience, having encountered God in various ways throughout my life, especially since experiencing the baptism with the Spirit some 28 years ago. Secondly I’ve found the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus to be compelling evidence that Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. Jesus’ impact on the world is just amazing, and based on his claims he’s either a liar, lunatic, or truly is Lord. Thirdly, evolution simply doesn’t make sense to me. What does make sense is devolution. Instead of things evolving, things are dying. Without the input of life, things, systems, die. Things do not grow from an unorganized state to an organized system without outside influence. But the main thing with me is personal experience. I’ve experienced the love, grace, forgiveness, healing, deliverance, revelation, salvation of God in many ways and many times in my life. I’ve also found it true that “Believing usually results in Seeing”, but “Seeing does not necessarily or even usually result in Believing.” Our “beliefs” usually act as a filter that colors our interpretation of everything we see, hear, and experience.

DL,

You have repeatedly insisted you don’t want to ‘convert’ us, but then emphasize that you are more “enlightened,” as here because you reject seeing God as a “good” or “creative” entity. You repeatedly sketch what you see as our bad theology and assert that you have a “better theology.” Could you just as briefly sketch what you see as your enlightened conception of ‘God’? I think that might help us compare the competing visions.

Because it isn’t a less enlightened view, and so people better educated and more intelligent than you still find it logically coherent to do so. It’s only a leap of logic to those who haven’t worked out the logic yet.

Wow, trolling is easy! I should stop wasting my time actually working on posts and do this instead! :laughing:

More seriously, what you see as a leap of logic just isn’t seen as a leap by many educated and intelligent people. They see a logical path to the conclusion that, to them (us), makes sufficient sense, even if you don’t see it.

Which doesn’t of itself mean they’re (we’re) right and you’re wrong. It’s pretty normal for some educated people to see logical coherencies of accurate facts where even other educated people can’t (yet) see them; and it’s also pretty normal for some educated people to be mistaken about seeing logical coherencies of accurate facts where other educated (or occasionally even uneducated) people can see obvious real problems with the logic and/or the proposed factual claims. People just don’t always agree with each other on evidential and/or logical assessments; and often it isn’t even because one side is making more mistakes about the data accuracy or the logical validity. It can just as easily come down to different inductive likelihood expectations (i.e. how much the evidence weighs to a person in one direction or another).

But people who lack natural sympathy with other people, or who haven’t worked at cultivating sympathy where they lack it, will just as naturally not see or understand that – whether they’re Christian, alt-Christian, non-Christian, anti-Christian, anti-religious, whatever.

Which I can sympathize with! :laughing: – I see various non-/anti-Christians making gallumphing huge logic-cracking leaps, or persistently playing with faulty data, all the time, and I have to fight myself hard about dismissing them as a bunch of mouth-breathing imbeciles or inept ignoramuses! And because of my temperament I have to work really reaaaally hard at that.

But you’d want me to work hard at not seeing you as a cretin, even if I think you’re freakishly mistaken on a bunch of topics. So, since I would prefer people grant that same charity to me, I work at bending over backward to grant that charity to them even when they clearly have no interest in granting it to me.

Of course it does help that, working from a position of strength, I can afford to be generous. :mrgreen:

(But by the same proportion if I’m not generous to my opponents where I have the strength to be generous, I’m more liable for not doing so. Which I realize is only of interest to me, not to you, but I try to make a habit of being self-critical.)

“Things do not grow from an unorganized state to an organized system without outside influence.”

God doing just that is your belief. Right? That would make your statement wrong.

You have invested a lot in your belief so it would be fruitless for me to try to move you. You no longer have an open mind.

My main focus is always morals. I do not see good morals when I look at Jesus or his God even though I am not an atheist.

If you care about your morals then let’s look at some.

Let’s start at the beginning.

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt or alter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of the guilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote God in as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

I also have moral issues with Jesus. This link speaks of some of them. It does not speak of Jesus’ most anti-love divorce policy that I can think of except for hell.

As I asked, if you wish to discuss morals I am here for that.

youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgV … r_embedded

Regards
DL

thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html

The Godhead I believe in is quite good.
It is the bible God who is a genocidal son murdering prick, if you believe scriptures in a foolish literal way that is.

I did not say I was more enlightened. I said the more enlightened view.

I do not try to convert any to Gnostic Christianity. Our myths are too complicated for most. Even I have a hard time with them.

I try to have people seek God within themselves as Jesus taught. That is about it.

Have I ever asked anyone to read our gospels? No.

Regards
DL

Thanks for this.

Just a couple of things came to mind while reading.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

And.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Martin Luther “

This puts the rest of us in a position where reasoning with theist becomes impossible.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Jonathan Swift

Regards
DL

She was of course referring to social gossip, so I see the extent of your prooftexting skills; but if you insist on the idea of respecting people such as yourself to be only the social gossip of a small mind, I suppose you can be obliged.

Except for those theists who think Martin Luther was talking out of his ass in order to spare himself problems.

Martin Luther at any rate isn’t talking to you here. Other people are, who don’t hold to Luthor’s self-refuting approach.

I suppose that might explain your refusal to listen to reason when people reason with you.

It doesn’t explain why you’re here on the boards at all – since you treat all theists this way regardless of the evidence of them reasoning with you, you can only be saying you aren’t here to reason with any theists.

Which means you’re only here to be a spammer or a troll, neither of whom are even slightly interested in reasoning with anyone they talk to.

We shall promptly begin treating you that way, as you wish. We’ll start with a one month ban, and then if you’ve learned better than to take the position of a spammer or troll on the boards you can try to convince us to let you continue posting. Go play with yourself until then.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

Only a small-minded person thinks that respect for persons is an idea fit only for small minds.

Clearly, you still aren’t here to reason with theists, thus not to actually discuss things with theists. Since this continues to be your answer, we’ll try a six month ban this time.

Perhaps next time you’ll have learned that to mock respect for persons as an idea, leaves you yourself no room to be respected.

I give respect where it is due.

I do not where it is not.

Do as you will but showing intolerance is not a good idea for such sites.

Regards
DL

Not sure how you got around Jason’s appropriate ban, GB. Locking thread to await admin review. Re-banning.