The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How Do You Explain the Trinity?

Paidion, it’s interesting that you call yourself a unitarian and i call myself binitarian or trinitarian (jury still out re: personhood of the Holy Spirit) and yet we believe almost exactly the same things.

But Paul does relate the begetting to Jesus’ resurrection. He says, “This he has fulfilled to us by raising Jesus, as also it is written…” I think the contrast, if there is one, would refer to Paul’s change of focus to Jesus’ incorruptibility.

I think Paul has chosen to apply Psalm 2:7 to the resurrection because he sees the resurrection as the act by which God has vindicated Jesus as the true King. Jesus was obviously God’s son prior to that (Matthew 3:7). But Paul isn’t talking about God creating Jesus as he creates other humans. Psalm 2 is not that general; the Son’s sonship is connected to his inheritance and reign. Neither is he talking about God creating or emanating or begetting Jesus at the beginning of time. What would that have to do with resurrection?

Thank you for your thoughts, Sail. Let’s examine the passage in greater detail:

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,“ ‘You are my Son,today I have begotten you.’ And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’" (Acts 13:32-34)

I think what has given you the thought that the begetting of the Son is his resurrection, is that you have interpreted “by raising Jesus” as being a reference to God raising Jesus from the dead. But clearly God raised Jesus in a different sense, as Peter indicated:

"For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. (Acts 3:22)

Stephen said much the same thing:

  • "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’ (Acts 7:37)*

God raised up Jesus to fulfill his purpose in speaking the the people through Jesus, while He still walked this earth. God hadn’t yet raised Him from the dead. Now I suggest that God’s begetting (not creation) of his Son “before all ages” which marked the beginning of the time, was the original “raising Him up” for his great purpose in speaking to his people, and for saving his people from their sins. So Peter and Stephen quoted Psalm 2 to indicate that the initial raising of the Son for God’s purpose took place when God begat Him before all ages. I think it was revealed to the Psalmist what God said to his Son not long after He begat Him. Thus he reported what God said to Him, “Today, I have begotten you.” Then Peter went on to say (in addition to the raising of the Son for God’s purposes), that God raised Him from the dead as well:

  • “And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’”*

Paidion, I think I understand what you are saying. I’ve pondered this, but can’t really see it this way. My view is totally different. I do believe we are begotten by God. Beget, according to the dictionary, means to give life to, bring into being, bring into the world, to produce or create, give rise to, bring about, to bring into existence by producing an image of, cause to exist. I’m not too sure where you get a different meaning for this word. I also believe that we each have been given a portion of God’s essence or Spirit,which does make us divine. No, I do not believe in cosmic spiritualism where we, as a whole ,are God.
Isaiah 45:12-13 says this: “I have made the earth and created man on it. It was I-My hands that stretched out the heavens, and all their host I commanded. I have raised him(man) up in righteousness. I will direct all his ways; he shall build My city and let My exiles go free, not for price or reward says the Lord of hosts.”
Ezekiel 36:27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will keep My judgments and do them.”
Ezekiel 37:5 "Thus says the Lord God to these bones: 'Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Isaiah 43:10-11 "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I ,am the Lord and besides Me, there is no Savior.
Yes, Psalm 2:7 is speaking of David. In saying that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, they may have been referring to Jesus as a leader. For the Lord said in the beginning that those made in His likeness(follow His word) will be blessed and have dominion over the earth.

As I understand it this is in the ballpark and gives the proper “sense” in which “begotten” is actually being used beyond its strict literalism, i.e., begotten carries the sense of “appointed” or “chosen”; Jesus being “raised up” speaks to this appointment by God BECAUSE OF his obedience…

…by the resurrection from the dead” was that which testified TO Jesus being raised up and duly appointed TODAY, i.e., “Son of God with power”. Of all God’s “sons” none (Adam/Israel/David/Solomon) but JESUS proved in faithfulness to be His ONLY begotten Son i.e., preeminent one; OR as Jesus himself declares, the only… “way, truth and life” and thus means that man “comes to the Father”.

Davo, this seems to make more sense, if I am reading you correctly,Jesus being the only begotten Son of God that did not fall to corruption.
As Paidion mentions, a piece of artwork is created, but it does not move or have life. This goes for anything man creates. However, God created man with spirit. This spirit is what moves us, therefore I would say we are begotten.

Paidion, you asked, “Did God make the nations David’s heritage? Did David break the nations with a rod of iron, etc.”

Isaiah 54:17 says this: “No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is from Me says the Lord.”

Paidion, this is specifically to you; you have a well-earned respect here and you can count me fully as one who has learned a lot from you and your gracious manner even when you disagree with someone. So I feel pretty safe in asking you for your take on something.

I’m going to link to a somewhat over-the-top group, imho, that nevertheless appears to make a pretty good case for Christ NOT being pre-existent. BUT I am not the scholar you are, so I’m hoping you may find the time to consider their arguments concerning certain scriptures, and let me know if they are completely unsound, or just a bit off-base, or if they are at least debatable. It’s not a long post, but still it will take a little time. If you have the time maybe you can take a look and report back. I’d really like to nail this one down one way or another. Be forewarned that imo they do use some hyperbole in their zeal, and they come out swinging, but as it goes along the ydrop much of the invective and get down to tacks.
Thanks.

BTW - not all their points are, to me, well-made at all. The first few for example. But some are.

hope-of-israel.org/12proof2.html

edit: I should have tagged Paidion, so will do it now:
[tag]paidion[/tag]

Sorry to have been so long in replying, Dave. At last, I will begin to discuss these “proofs” that Jesus did not pre-exist:

This doesn’t disprove the Son’s pre-existence if the Father were greater that the Son from the moment He was “begotten before all ages as God’s first act” as the early Christians put it. I see this first act as marking the beginning of time. Thus the Father always has been greater than the Son. There is nothing in this fact that disproves pre-existence.

Again, this in no way disproves the pre-existence of the Son. Though He was the only-begotten Son, and even the only-begotten God (John 1:18 in Papyrus 66 and Papyrus 75, the earliest manuscripts available) there is nothing in this fact that requires Him to have been omniscient at any time.

According to Justin Martyr, the Son of God shared the name “Yahweh” with his Father. Abraham had been talking to three “men.” He addressed one of them as “Yahweh.” The other two were angels who went on to Sodom and visited Lot. Then we read in Genesis 19:24

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.

In this verse there are TWO divine Individuals, each of whom is identified as “Yahweh.” One is on earth, the one who talked with Abraham. Another is in heaven from whom the one on earth received the authority and means to rain sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Thanks Paidion. Like I said, some arguments are not as strong as others.
I think at the end of the day, the question will still be ‘open’?

Hi Paidion… I think there’s a strong probability you are reading more into this than the text allows.

There is not two distinct i.e., different Yahwehs (for we know indeed… “the LORD is one”) in this text… “out of the heavens” (Heb pl.) references from whence came the fiery blast — “the Lord” being twice mentioned makes the from whom singularly self-evident and obvious; thus giving this sense as per the NKJV:

I think the simplest evidence of the pre-existence of Jesus is His own words, “Father, glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was.”

But also, “all things were made through Him and without Him was nothing made that was made.”

In many doctrinal arguments, proponents of one side or the other tend to discount the plain words of Jesus.

Like when hellists discount, “If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me”.

Oh, He doesnt mean “all” he just means all those who are saved in this life.

“Oh He doesnt mean that He was personally glorified before the world began, He only means He had glory in the mind of God as the Logos”

But that is not what it says. He is asking the Father to glorify Him with that same glory He possessed before the world began, not as the impersonal seed of the word, but as the pre-existent son of God who dwells in eternity with the Father.

I think the half hour of silence in heaven(revelations 8) was the thirty years Jesus walked the earth. It was silent because the word was on earth, not in heaven.

I am not a believer in the Trinity, as it is taught in orthodoxy, and I believe Jesus was generated by the Father as a Son, because for me that is the only way a Father and a Son makes sense. It trivializes the relationship(for me) to say that Jesus is equal to the Father and that He always was, so I believe Jesus was the beginning, the first creation of God, and expression of Himself to the entire creation to follow,vbbut wow, I mean no one knows that stuff for certain, imo. There is too little written and it is just too big a question for humans on this side of the veil to answer conclusively, so men of good conscience will have differing opinions, and most likely all be proven wrong when they awaken to the reality of it LOLOL :slight_smile:

Davo, there’s no probability at all that I am reading anything into the text. I would never have thought of it. As I explained, I got it from Justin Martyr, who presented this argument to Trypho and to his Jewish companions.

Sorry Paidion I stand corrected, my bad… IMO there’s a strong probability Justin Martyr read more into this than the text allows.

Hmmm… now I’m going to suggest “wooden literalism” on your part. That’s a switch, eh? :wink:

Do you not think it possible that two different divine Individuals (the Father and the Son) could share the same name “Yahweh” and yet be ONE?
After all, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30). See also John 17:11, 17:22.
That doesn’t imply that Jesus and the Father are a single divine Individual, does it? (although Modalists believe it does).

Having read Justin Martyr on the subject, it seems plausible to me to see two different Persons in this verse:

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.

For if there were just one Individual “Yahweh” meant in this text, why would Moses not omit the second “Yahweh” and say:

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from out of heaven.

But we know from the context that there was an appearance of Yahweh on earth. Abraham addressed that individual as “Yahweh.” One of the early Christians wrote that if anyone says that God the Creator appeared, or could even exist, on a small portion of the earth, he raves with madness.

Hi Paidion…

Lol… :wink: yep the truth is all views contain a mix of literalism and non-literalism of understandings, with the main difference simply coming down to haggling over those either/or details etc.

No not at all. I don’t think the structure of that verse lends itself to that interpretation… hence the more logical reading as per the NKJV above; or even the NIV…

Thus ONE and the SELFSAME Lord. Not only that, but to save any confusion (the very thing Justin Martyr has introduced into the text) the following verse seems to make the case singularly clear…

“So He” NOT “So They”. Again Martyr’s interpretation might twitch out ears a little but I think he’s straining the gnat.

My understanding on this is that Jesus makes no claim on being God here, BUT rather is spelling out that he is on the same page as the Father in terms of purpose i.e., his purpose of “being about my Father’s business”.

This might just be a good example of the opposing extreme… neither however IMO being ‘inspired’.

So how does your view of Jesus, Eaglesway, compare/contract with that of AE Knoch (who also believes Jesus was created) :question: It’s discussed in the article at A.E. Knoch’s errors in doctrine (which Eusebius, as a student of AE Knoch, also embraces) :exclamation:

Of course it says “He.” It was the Individual who is first mentioned and called “Yahweh” who overthrew the cities. But He received the source and power to do so from Yahweh in heaven.

I agree that He and the Father are one in that sense. But there is more. He is Another exactly like the Father. Hebrews 1:3 asserts that He is the exact imprint of the Father’s essence. Also, we need to note that Jesus IS said to be God in some sense in John 1:1. Not that He is the Father, or a part of a compound God, but that He is divine in virtue of having been begotten by God as the first of God’s acts. The result of this begetting is that He is an exact imprint of the Father. In John 1:18 in the earliest extant manuscripts of the verse, Papyrus 46 and Papyrus 75, the Son is said to be “the only-begotten God.” Yet, although the Son is the only-begotten God, yet the Father alone is “the only true God” as Jesus addressed Him in his prayer(John 17:3). This is possible only if the word “God” is used in a different sense when denoting the Son. The word “God” occurs 1177 times in the New Testament, and at least 1162 of these exclusively denotes the Father.

I apologize for the length of this - this is one of the ‘proofs’ from - a website arguing against the pre-existence of Jesus. I’m not sure how important the teaching is, one way or another - certainly for a sinner that is looking for relief from the burdens of sin, the teaching is not of any concern at the time. But we have some leisure, and can wrangle over things. :slight_smile:

6/. John 17:5. In John 17:5 we read the following –
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

To the untrained mind it sounds as though this verse is upholding the teaching that the Messiah pre-existed before his fleshly birth. But, by comparing the Greek text to the English translation and then letting OTHER SCRIPTURES interpret this scripture for us, it becomes very obvious that this scripture was also TAMPERED WITH – TWISTED to fit prevailing pagan concepts!

The New International Version Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, shows the Greek word for word translation of this verse:
5. and now glorify me thou, Father, with thyself…with the glory which I had before the world to be with thee.

The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” – word #2192 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice –
… to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:

Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can – and should – have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.” This glory that the Messiah is said to have, is to be BEFORE the world TO COME.

The next word underlined – translated “BEFORE” – is word #4253 in Strong’s, and means: PREVIOUSLY; that is, “PREVIOUS” to the world TO COME –
4253. … pro, pro; a prim. prep.; “fore,” i.e. in front of, prior (fig. Superior) to:- above, ago, before, or ever. In comp. it retains the same significations.

The third word underlined – translated “TO BE” – is shown by A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (by Ethelbert W. Bullinger) to mean “COME”:
elvai (pres. infinit.) to be, 33; be, 12; to have been, 1; have been, 1; that…am (art, is, are, be), 27; that…was (were), 10; had been, 1; that…may (might, should) be, 6; to be made, 1; come, 1.

Now let’s read this verse in the way that it should have been translated –
And now, O Father, You glorify me beside Your own self, with the glory which I AM TO HAVE with You BEFORE the world to come.

The Messiah was only asking YEHOVAH God to glorify him beside the Father – or at the right hand of YEHOVAH’s throne – with the glory that HE (YEHOVAH God) HAD IN STORE for him – BEFORE the Kingdom of God (YEHOVAH) and BEFORE the NEW WORLD that is to come.

The Messiah knew full well that he was to die and be resurrected by YEHOVAH God. He also knew that he was to be allowed to take his rightful place at the right side of YEHOVAH, and that is exactly what we find in the other scriptures that interpret this scripture. Notice Hebrews 1:1-3:
Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle (the one sent) and High Priest of our profession, Yeshua the Messiah; who was faithful to Him: YEHOVAH, Who BEGOT HIM, just as Moses was faithful in all his house. Now this one (the Messiah) was counted worthy of more GLORY than Moses, since he who has built the House of YEHOVAH has more honor than the House of YEHOVAH.

This GLORY was in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy – and this glory was only to BEGIN to take place in a certain time period. In the following verses we find written:

Hebrews 1:13: But to which of the angels has He (YEHOVAH) ever said: sit at my right hand – until I make your enemies your footstool?

Psalm 110:1: YEHOVAH said to my ruler and king: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.

1 Peter 1:11: Examining closely to what things, or what manner of season, which the spirit that was in them made clear to them, when it testified BEFOREHAND to the sufferings of Messiah, and the GLORY THAT WOULD FOLLOW.

1 Peter 5:1: The elders who are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Messiah, and ALSO A PARTAKER of the GLORY THAT WILL BE REVEALED:

We must realize that we too can look forward to this SAME glory that the Messiah will receive. Just as the apostles looked forward to this glory, so should we. Notice 2 Peter 1:3:
As His holy power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and holiness, through the full knowledge of Him Who called US to GLORY and virtue.

This was the very glory that the Messiah was talking about – glory he knew he would receive because it was written in the prophets! He knew he would RECEIVE this glory AFTER HIS RESURRECTION – he did not have this glory before his human birth! Yeshua the Messiah, as the only BEGOTTEN son of YEHOVAH God, will always have the honor of being at his Father’s right hand – but he did not receive this honor (glory) until AFTER his resurrection!

The word translated “glory” is word #1391 in Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, and means:
2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. xxai. 26; Jn. xvii. 5

As the Bible says, the Messiah will receive his glory and then his enemies will be made his footstool. In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 we clearly see that the last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH – but we also can see that YEHOVAH God will always be exalted as THE SUPREME HEAD over ALL, even by Yeshua himself, who sits at YEHOVAH’s right hand –
Then the end, when he (the Messiah) will have handed over the Kingdom to YEHOVAH, to our Father, when he (the Messiah) will have destroyed every other rule, and every authority and power. For he (the Messiah) MUST REIGN until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For YEHOVAH has put all things under his feet. But when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YEHOVAH HIMSELF, Who put everything under Yeshua. When He has done this, then the son himself WILL BE SUBJECT TO HIM Who put all things under him, so that YEHOVAH may be acknowledged as THE SUPREME HEAD OVER ALL.

Clearly, when the Messiah appears on this earth again (as pictured in Revelation 10) he will have all authority to destroy all other rules, authorities and powers. He will reign on earth until he has put all enemies under his feet and then, when YEHOVAH’s Shekinah Glory returns to this earth (Revelation 19:11) to reside in the Temple built by the Messiah, the Messiah will hand all power over to Him and become subject to Him – acknowledging that YEHOVAH God is the SUPREME HEAD over ALL. Yeshua the Messiah will then become our High Priest, ministering to YEHOVAH his Father in the Temple of YEHOVAH God!

The Messiah was NOT speaking of “past glory”, nor of a “past life” – as count-less deceived people have believed. Unfortunately, people are deceived because of the pagan lies that the translators have inserted into the scriptures! The Messiah was speaking of the glory he WAS to RECEIVE after he was resurrected; the glory of the only BEGOTTEN son of the Father, full of mercy and truth!

The glory of being the ONLY begotten son of YEHOVAH – the FIRSTBORN from the dead, is the glory the Messiah has NOW, and will forevermore have! But – and let this sink in – the Messiah DID NOT have this glory previously, because he simply DID NOT EXIST before he was begotten by YEHOVAH God and born as a flesh and blood human being! Read 1 Peter 1:19-20:
But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was MANIFEST in these last times for you; who through him we do believe in YEHOVAH, who raised him up from the dead, and GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in YEHOVAH.

What is the website URL :question: :question: :question:

See the post above on Oct. 17th :slight_smile: