The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How Do You Explain the Trinity?

Of course man is made of “God stuff.” What else could there be of which to make man? We come forth from the Father and to the Father we will again draw near. For a time it is necessary for us to be somewhat separate, at least in our perception, so that we can develop into persons who are not mere extensions of God. In a sense, we must be extensions of Him, but only as children are extensions of their parents–not as fingers are extensions of a hand–that would negate our personhood, and I am convinced that God wants us to be persons. That’s the whole reason for the epistimological distance, imo. We couldn’t have developed into genuine persons without it–we would have been fingers rather than sons; puppets rather than people.

Bottom line though, the whole human race is one, even though we are many persons. In a lesser sense, all of creation is one, though we were made the lords of this world (Does that include more than earth? I have no clue.) If we and the earth are one, does that mean the earth will one day be human? I don’t think so–It may become sentient one day–even the very planet–and attain personhood–but that is so very, very far out in what we see as time that it doesn’t even signify for us today–even if it’s more than fantasy. Even if that were true, though, I think that it would always be the earth, and we will always be humans, and God (though the entire creation is made of His substance) will always be God in a sense that we will never be God. We are humans and, imo, humans we will remain, though we will be always becoming more and more what humans were always meant to be; a reflection of the glory and love of God. Not withstanding all that, the entire creation, cannot cease to be one with God, nor can it cease to be itself. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. We are not God, but we are God’s children who will, as we grow, become more and more like Him. It doesn’t follow that we will BE Him.

Cindy, I agree. We are not God. I would say that we are separate “persons” made up of the essence ( “God stuff” :slight_smile: ) of our Creator. I would suppose that this would make us somewhat divine should we be following the ways of Him who made us. The Bible sees man’s relationship to God as that of a Husband and wife, Father and son, and King and prince. As mentioned before, the Trinity paints a different picture. Keep in mind that this doctrine did not come about until hundreds of years after Christ. It seems to promote the idea of a “God family”, one that does not include man. It makes one wonder if there was not perhaps some Greek/Roman influence on the doctrine, as they believed in such “God families”. Also, many in those days did not have a Bible in hand, and many could not yet read. I’m sure there were those who did not want to give up their “in group” status. This may have had some influence as well. For extending from the Trinitarian belief is the teaching that God gave all power and authority to His Son, Jesus. What happened to God giving man dominion over the earth? This takes us back to the belief that God has all power and authority, and those “appointed by God” tell man what God says. Only this time it becomes Jesus who has all power and authority, and those “appointed by God” tell man what Jesus says. I suspect that man may have been up to his same old tricks. And so Jesus says in Matthew 24:4, “Take heed that no one deceives you.”

However, Scripture does affirm that the Son is of the same essence as the Father.

He [the Son] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his essence …

I think “essence” is the correct translation of “υποσσστασις” in this verse.
The Greek word can also be “ground of being” or “undergirth”.

The following definition is from Strong’s Lexicon:

Some lexicons also include “substance” as a translation.

“brightness” = <ἀπαύγασμα> apaugasma; “express image” = <χαρακτὴρ> charaktēr; “person” = <ὑποστάσεως> hupostaseōs

It might be textually more precise to say the Son was “the exact imprint” of his essence… “exact imprint” however doesn’t necessitate ontological sameness of essence. A mirror or photograph will give you the exact imprint/image of that which it captures or reflects and yet is not the “essence” thereof itself… it RESEMBLES it. Jesus was God’s Man… THEREFORE when He spoke God spoke.

No it doesn’t. Rational creatures are still analogous to God in those ways.

The key points of the doctrine “came about” no later than Paul’s epistles (and I would argue much earlier): one and only one self-existent ground of all reality; identified variously as the Father, the Son (born, living, dying, and raised again as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; with actual personal relationships between them; including authority relationships (especially the Son’s submission to the Father, the self-begetting Person still being the God of the self-begotten Person, and the God of the self-given Person for that matter although the topic doesn’t seem to come up in the scriptures, if trinitarian theism is true).

There is only one way all those points add up. The points can be disputed as actually being there, but that’s what the disputes were about, and denying one or more points leads to something else. Refining the implications of the details took centuries, although the refining started no later than about a hundred years after Christ. (Early-mid 100s. And probably earlier, but we don’t have surviving texts before then showing people refining the implications, so it’s hard to say.) Before then it was mainly a question of who or Who to religiously worship. After then it was mainly a question of who or Who to religiously worship and why. :wink: Some of the delay was related to the delay in collecting a canonical set of texts, since the point was to work out the implications of the faithful deposit.

Neither the Greco-Roman pagans nor the Greco-Roman philosophers believed that the ultimate ground of all existence is personal (or actively self-existent either, thus not actively self-begetting and self-begotten), much less that it is a personal relationship. So no, they didn’t believe in “such” God-families.

The Trinity doesn’t exclude rational creatures from being in God’s family any more than sheer monotheism excludes it, considering that either way man is not and cannot be the one and only ground of all reality. The Trinity does involve such personal relationships being ultimately fundamental to all reality, which is a hugely important claim (not least for universal salvation!) – for one thing it ratifies that God, despite being God and not a creature, can and does seek familial relationships with not-God creatures, which the Greco-Roman philosophers hotly denied (treating the “fatherhood” of God as being, at best, a useful allegory.)

God still shares dominion over the earth with creatures, by and under His own authority. The Incarnation doesn’t change this concept. A denial of trinitarian theism (with an Incarnation or otherwise) doesn’t suddenly lead to God giving all power and authority to not-God creatures instead of retaining all power and authority as the one and only ground of all existence.

Admittedly, the factors you’re talking about played a part and were always going to play a part; they played a part when the Imperial court and military were largely Arian and neo-Arian, too. People still claimed to be “appointed by God” to tell man what God says. Just like in Judaism; just like in Islam afterward; just like in all religions where God bothers to do anything at all in Nature.

Only this time, under trinitarian theism, a man Who always was and is and will be the one with all power and authority (being the self-existent ground of all reality) sacrifices Himself for His own worst enemies as an example of what true authority means, shattering (in principle if not yet in practice) all subsequent claims to despotic authority even in the name of God.

Man, being up to his same old tricks, perverted that, too – including by denying that a self-sacrificial benevolent interpersonal relationship is the highest authority and even the one and only ground of all reality.

But that isn’t the fault of the idea that a self-sacrificial benevolent interpersonal relationship is the highest authority and even the one and only ground of all reality.

“For many will come in My name saying, ‘I am the Christ’, and will mislead many.” God shares His authority with us, but it’s His authority, not the authority of anyone less than God Most High; and what that authority means is very importantly different if trinitarian Christianity is true.

There were many Roman/Greek Gods who had personal relationships amongst themselves. In fact many had wives and children. The concept of a triple deity goes way back and was common in old world mythology. Some examples are Zeus, Athena an Apollo, Orsis, Isis and Horus, Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. As I mentioned before, they were separate from man. What makes the Trinity any different in this respect? I think the Jewish people had it right. There is only one true God, and all who follow His laws and ways are sons of God.

But they were not regarded as the ground of all existence, either together or separately. Nor were any of the supposed triple groupings you mentioned ever regarded as sole triple groupings, or even the most important triple groupings. (For that matter, I don’t recall Zeus and two of his children being a triple grouping at all.) They were only gods, and petty, selfish creatures even in their own cosmologies. They are only separate from man by being incidentally more powerful; compared to God (or even to fundamental irrational and amoral Kaos in their own cosmology) they are on the same level as man, not separate from man, categorically. That doesn’t count the lack of a true Incarnation, including Horus and Osiris, the former of whom doesn’t have a virgin birth either. Nor any kind of resurrection. Nor does his father Osiris have any kind of resurrection, only a minor resuscitation – mainly so his wife can necrophile his body and conceive Horus! Who has only a minimal personal relationship with his dead father Osiris. And the Isis cults tended to focus on Osiris or on Horus, not both – there was no ‘trinity’ in that sense either.

To call any of those groupings a triple deity (singular), is stretching haarrrrrrrrd to try to find some significant parallel. It’s the type of worthless argument Jesus Mythers and other hypersceptics come up with. (Man up to his same old tricks again. :unamused: )

Those groupings (at least two of them somewhat arbitrary, as there was no special relationship between Athena and Apollo as children of Zeus, and Minerva/Athena was very explicitly not the child of Juno/Hera and had no special relationship with her either) are categorically NOT the same as an interpersonal self-begetting self-begotten self-giving relationship at and as the one and only self-sacrificial and actively self-existent ground of all reality. They aren’t even close; they aren’t even close to even being close. The fact that you’re appealing to wives-and-children as a supposed parallel, only shows you don’t understand the thematic points of what you’re criticizing at all: the Holy Spirit is never treated as the wife of God, and Mary is not sexually impregnated the way Zeus did with his adulterous liaisons (betraying his actual wife Hera/Juno) nor even the way Osiris does with Isis to beget Horus; nor is Mary even slightly on par with the Father and the Son (or the Spirit either), despite what you may have heard from Muslims I guess…??? Even Catholics (eastern or western) don’t go that far with Mary, despite their reverential language for the God-bearer.

The only one distantly close to even being close (so to speak) is Zeus & Athena, simply because Athena is born directly from the mind of Zeus, and (usually) has some thematic connections to Reason – which I suppose is why two of your three groupings included her. But then that isn’t a trinity even in the most basic notion of three persons, so you (or your source) had to cast around randomly for other deities in the pantheon that had some personal relation to Zeus.

I will add that I would say EXACTLY THE SAME THING if I was a dedicated atheist instead. It would be abundantly clear to me that if trinitarian Christians had borrowed from some religion for their Trinity, they borrowed from Judaism and its scriptures – which not-incidentally is what the trinitarian Christians themselves universally claimed, following suit with what their Christian scriptures universally claim, over-against the very idea of borrowing from non-Jewish religions – and maybe also from the intertestamental focus on the Memra of God being God Himself and yet also somehow personally distinct as an agent of God. And also borrowing from the religion of the Christian canonical texts, if I thought the concepts there were quite distinct from trinitarianism but close enough in topic occasionally to feasibly be borrowing from (as the trinitarians themselves universally claimed anyway).

I’ve never heard an argument against the Trinity that touches my Trinitarian beliefs as a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Anyone who is serious about learning what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Trinity can read the Church’s liturgical texts. I can recommend some particular ones to anyone who might be interested.

I don’t think the Trinity comes from the scriptures. The Jewish people believed in one God only. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is three “persons”. Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, not God the Son. In fact, when God speaks, He says “I” not “We”. So, I would say that to find a trinity of Gods mentioned in the Bible is really stretching it. From the beginning to the end, the Bible speaks of God’s love for man as told through the history of the Jewish people. This relationship consists of one God ( the Father) and man (the son). To say then that God came to reveal Himself as three Gods in one, and that the Son happens to be another God “person”, seems inconsistent with scripture.
Jason, If God is self-existing as you mentioned, then there is no need for another. I’m not sure what you are trying to say about the ground of all reality. If perhaps what you are suggesting is that love cannot exist by itself, then I would say that only two are necessary. But, if the two are of the same essence then I would say that only one is necessary since it basically boils down to loving one’s self. Then again, you may be talking about something completely different.
P.S. I am not an atheist. :wink:

How about, “Let’s make man in our own image?” (Gen 1:26)

However, that does not in itself indicate that God is plural.

Paidion, Somehow I just knew you’d point that verse out. :laughing:
I’m just saying, in looking at the history of the Roman Catholic Church and it’s very powerful clergy, it seems to me that something was being misinterpreted.

The Trinity defines God as three cosubstantial persons, one God in three “persons”-the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each is distinct, yet they are of one substance, essence or nature. Believers in the Trinity go on to say that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages. Yet according to the Bible, there are many sons of God. Starting at the beginning, before all ages, man was created in the image of God. The first son of God was Adam ( Luke 3:38).
Exodus 4:22 “Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, My firstborn.”
Jeremiah 31:9 “I am the Father of Israel and Ephraim is My firstborn.”
Psalm 2:7 “The Lord has said to Me(David), You are My son , today I have begotten You.”
Psalm 82:6 “You are all sons of the Most High.”
Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.”
At the same time, while claiming that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, of the divine essence of the Father, those who promoted the Trinity didn’t mind proclaiming themselves holy-“We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”
Yes, I would say that man was up to his same old tricks! As I recall, this is along the same lines as what Israel was doing at the time of Christ.
John 10:36 "Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world ‘You are blaspheming’ because I said ‘I am the Son of God?.’ "
According to the leaders of Israel, how could Jesus be a son of God? He didn’t fit the bill. He was a lowly carpenter’s son who wasn’t following their rules and regulations (doctrines of men). He broke the Sabbath ( again, the Sabbath rules according to men). He was forgiving people. Only God has the power to forgive( unless of course you happen to be a priest, ordained by God). From what I understand we all have the power to forgive.
Jesus never said, “I am God”. I believe that that question is left up to each of us to decide for ourselves who He was. However, when Jesus proclaimed to be a Son of God, He was referring to Himself as simply a man who followed the One True God. This is who needed to be resurrected from the dead, and any man who follows in His footsteps and does the same is likewise a son of God.
1 Corinthians 6:17 “But he who is joined to the Lord is One Spirit with Him.”
We are all called to be holy. For the goodness that we find in in our hearts and minds is of the Holy Spirit of the Father who created us.
Lev. 11:44-46, Lev. 19:2, 1 Peter 1:16 say this: “Be holy as I am Holy.” Leviticus 20:7 “Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.”
Holy- definition: Exalted as one perfect in goodness and righteousness; divine; having a divine quality.
Divine- definition: Of,from or like God; being or having the nature of a god; belonging to God.
1 Corinthians 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Sprit who is in you, whom you have from God.”
1 Corinthians 6:20 “Glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are God’s.”
The way I see it, all men are sons(unless we are derived from apes). We are all equal, and all have the same God given powers and rights. Some just choose not to follow.

First let me affirm again, that I am a unitarian, as Jesus was, in believing the Father to be the “one true God” (John 17:3)

However, I don’t think it will do to point out that there were many sons of God, and imply that Jesus was merely one of them. For He was the ONLY-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17, 1 John 4:9). Second-century Christians stated that his begetting (or “generation”) was the first of God’s acts (before all ages). My belief is that this first act (or possibly the second act) marked the beginning of time.

None of the other “sons of God” were begotten by God, but were mere creations. It is because Jesus was the ONLY Son of God who was begotten, that I capitalize the word “Son”. For the Father begat no other son. His having been begotten Him indicates his being of the same divine essence as the Father. Heb 1:3 states that He is the exact imprint of the Father’s essence. Some say that this fact doesn’t imply that He shared the essence of the Father. I think it does. Just as when we beget offspring, our children are of the same human essence as us. When dogs beget pups, the pups are of the same canine essence as their parents. No angel, no human being, nor any other created being is a son of God in the sense of having been begotten by God (though there is a sense in which many human beings have been spiritually “begotten again” by God.

Not only is Jesus the “only-begotten Son” but John 1:18 (in the earliest manuscripts such as papyrus 66 and papyrus 75 copied about 150 A.D.) affirms that He was “the only-begotten God”. (The Father was not begotten). For there is a sense that Jesus can be said to be “God” and that is, in the sense of his divinity, just as our offspring can be said to be “man” in the sense of their humanity. And that the sense in which the Logos is affirmed to have been “God” in John 1:1.

In that verse, the placement of “theos” before the verb “ān” indicates that “God-stuff” is the essence of the Logos. The same arrangement is used in the clauses “God is love” and “Your word is truth (reality)”. For “love” is the essence of God, and “reality” is the essence of God’s word.

My position does not imply that I am a binitarian. For a binitarian is simply a trinitarian who believes in one God consisting of two Persons rather than three. But the word “God” in the Bible NEVER refers to a compound being. When it occurs with the article and no other modifier, it always refers to the Father alone. When first and second century Christians referred to Jesus as “God” they were referring to his divine essence, just as we can refer to any member of the human race as “man”. But only Jesus and his Father can be called “God” in this generic sense.

Great post Paidion.

I concur. But where is the fence :question: :laughing:

Aha - wiseguy :smiley: Please don’t say we need THREE posts!! :laughing:

Paidion, no offense, I value your thoughts, but it seems to me that you are reading something more into the text than what is plainly written.
Beget or begotten means to cause to exist, bring about, to become the Father of. Did God cause man to exist (beget us), or did we come about through the process of evolution? According to the Bible, God is the Father or Creator of man. "God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. To me, this means that we are more than just physical matter. We also have a spirit. Is this spirit not from God? If as you say, the essence of God is love, and man has the ability to love, then I would say that we have the essence of God. Psalm 2:7 sates that David is begotten of God. Does begotten mean something else in this verse?

OK. I’ll just dedicate a song to what is not right :exclamation: :laughing:

Now let’s get back to 3. And just like one man, a horse and a song, comprise the one picture - the end result is something we enjoy and benefit from. :exclamation: :laughing:

Hi LLC,

Yes, God created man. But He begat only his ONLY-begotten Son.
Creating and begetting are two quite different activities. An artist creates a picture, but begets a child. The child is similar to his father (in being human like his father). But his art work is quite different from himself—even if he creates a self-portrait, it is not human.

So none of us have been begotten by God. None of us are divine; none of us are “God stuff”. Rather God CREATED the first man and woman, and gave them the ability to reproduce, and thus all people have been begotten or generated directly or indirectly from Adam and Eve. God begat no one except his Son. He didn’t beget the angels; He created them.

I have never before encountered anyone who thought David was speaking of himself when he wrote:

Yahweh said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” (Psalm 2:7-9)

Did God make the nations David’s heritage? Did David break the nations with a rod of iron, etc.?
Most people regard this passage as David speaking prophetically of the coming Messiah. The Son, whom God sent as Messiah, is the One whom God begat, and He spoke to Him these words in the day in which He begat Him. Indeed, Paul quoted this very passage as referring to Messiah Jesus:

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,“ ‘You are my Son,today I have begotten you.’ And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’" (Acts 13:32-34)

Some think that Paul was suggesting that the begetting of the Son was his resurrection from the dead. But Paul’s words CONTRAST Jesus’ resurrection with his begetting with the words, “And as for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, etc.”

I see Psalm 2 and Paul’s quotation of it as giving the very words God said to his Son shortly after He begat Him.