Not for a Calvinist, Davo. The Calvinist believes that he has been chosen by God, through no merit of his own, to be one of God’s elect. There was no choice involved. Calvinists have no ‘freewill choice’ about when they wipe their bottoms, let alone something as momentous as salvation. This is why Calvinism is full of the stuff people wipe their bottoms to remove 
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J
aww got me again… actually that last piece was my contrariwise side showing 
In actuality I believe in biblical “election”, it just applied [past tense] in my estimation solely to the biblical era alone in that it was in play up until such time as God secured the redemption of Israel and the reconciliation of man, i.e., in the 40yr ‘biblical generation’ Ad30-70.
Now that does not mean God no longer moves or prompts one’s heart since then, BUT that “election” was all about the outworking of God’s divine restorative plan for man… “it is finished” it IS a done deal. IOW from my perspective, “election” was NEVER repeat NEVER about eternal destinies nor the securing of such, no, “election” was all about WHO was called to SERVE God.
The biblical reality is… ‘the elect’ SERVE on behalf of the rest… it’s what the firstfruits did; it’s what historic Israel was to the rest of the world…
Jer 2:3 Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest. All who ate of it incurred guilt; disaster came upon them, declares the LORD.”
Though Israel abdicated and lost her high calling Mt 21:43] such was fulfilled by Jesus and His firstfruit saints…
Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
Firstfruits SANCTIFY the whole, i.e., to make “acceptable”. There is no such thing nor biblical warrant for any notion of a second, third or fourth-fruits etc, etc down the road. The job was done ONCE for All… we can’t repeat what God has done.
Now that is interesting Davo!
Well, as I understand it… it is logical, sensible and TOTALLY takes the wind out of the sail with regards to the THEM/US mentality that has stricken Christendom, particularly so since Calvin came on the scene with his rendition of things. Of course I could be wrong, I don’t believe I am, but I could be.
Good point Cindy.
If the monstrous god of Calvinism predetermines people to sin and to eternally burn and predetermines people to have the illusion to belong to the elects (even if they are going to completely discard Christianity in the future) then what gives you the certainty that** you **don’t belong to that group too?
There are many militant atheists who were former fundamentalists, once convinced they belonged to Christ and having all the fruits of the spirit (or the fundamentalist version thereof).
The god of Calvinism is a moral monster far worse than Hitler he predetermined to be wicked.
It is just utterly impossible to trust such a being.
I base my trust in my conviction that God unconditionally loves everyone and will always welcome everyone desiring Him.
Calvinists are the victims of a nihilistic belief system which turns the whole reality into a cruel farce made by a heartless tyrant.
In actuality I believe in biblical “election”, it just applied [past tense] in my estimation solely to the biblical era alone in that it was in play up until such time as God secured the redemption of Israel and the reconciliation of man, i.e., in the 40yr ‘biblical generation’ Ad30-70.
Certainly God elects various folks for specific purposes like Jacob over Esau or even Pharoah to do what he did or even Jesus disciples were elected but none of this has anything to do with salvation. 
Bingo, Steve! THAT, imo, is where Augustine and Calvin missed the whole point of election.
Lotharson, alas – sad but true. The Calvinist nor the Arminian can have any security in salvation at all.
I think evangelicalism needs to rethink it’s understanding of “salvation”, doing this will help get a better handle on what “election” means. Either way the main thrust of either is NOT about “getting to heaven” nor in particular “who” gets there as is typically taught.
If the monstrous god of Calvinism predetermines people to sin and to eternally burn and predetermines people to have the illusion to belong to the elects (even if they are going to completely discard Christianity in the future) then what gives you the certainty that you don’t belong to that group too?
Lotharson,
What if the Calvinist God simply annihilated the non-elect, would you find that palatable?
But he doesn’t, does he Steve? He creates the non-elect for the precise purpose of roasting them eternally for the manifestation of his glory 
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J
steve7150 wrote:What if the Calvinist God simply annihilated the non-elect, would you find that palatable?
But he doesn’t, does he Steve? He creates the non-elect for the precise purpose of roasting them eternally for the manifestation of his glory .
J
If annihilation is true (it’s possible) i think that would impact the unsaved whether in Freewill or Election systems, so this is a “what if” question.
Steve: I believe that God **not resurrecting the non-elects **is logically compatible with His love, even if I find it extremely unlikely.
For me the point of spirituality is to undergo change to where you become a more humble, loving, and compassionate person. This is found in other religions besides Christianity. What Buddhism calls enlightenment, Christianity calls being born again. This is what Christ was all about. This is what matters. Although I hold to all five points of Calvinism I have to remain open to the fact that in the end all may eventually be saved. My universalism would be different than the universalism of those who are here but it’s a universalism nonetheless. No matter how hard I try I just can’t bring myself to hold to eternal punishment as an absolute certainty.
Hello Son of Lothar, and Steve also
I disagree . And I will leave it to a far better mind than mine, our very own Universalist philosopher Thomas Talbott, to explain why:
I find Talbott’s argument logically watertight and wholly persuasive. It is fatal to Calvinism (which admittedly isn’t difficult, as a five-year-old could come up with half a dozen arguments that are fatal to Calvinism ) but it is also, I believe, fatal to any religious doctrine under which some are saved and others are not.
What do you think guys?
Cheers
Johnny
I like it.
When I was a Baptist Calvinist (until I was 24), I thought I KNEW I was born again. I based it on the fact that I had “accepted Christ”. This one act clinched the fact that I was born again and couldn’t become “unborn”. This fact also proved to me that I had been predestined for heaven from before the foundation of the earth. In my Calvinistic mind, nothing could change that fact—no amount of sin or backsliding (though I didn’t want to do that anyway).
Furthmore, I was not only convinced of my “predestination” and “eternal security” (actually unconditional security), but I imagined it to be my ministry to convince as many people as possible of those two doctrines.
As a father, I really find it interesting that the beliefs we were raised with take priority over common sense. This is true, even in my life. I had long been an ECT believer until I asked a brother how their study in the word was going. I remember the last part of his reply “I am still trying to figure out if the church fathers believed if Hell was eternal” My reply? “Of course it is! How could it be any other way?”… But it sparked an interest to search it out. I remember finding a pastor named Doug Batchelor, I think. He gave compelling scriptural evidence that we are wiped out, obliterated. At first I was relieved, I guess Grandpa Bill isn’t burning in hell. Somehow, after searching that view out further, I came to a Jewish site in regards to those missing out on the millennial kingdom, and it actually presented a view of Universalism. It made sense, but at the same time, I thought the view was ‘out there’ and of course, I eventually found Tentmaker. When I found Tentmaker, I initially rejected it as something the devil thought up. Especially when I read Gary’s article about Judas. Over time, I guess I became convinced.
Now, this thread isn’t about that, but I wanted to bring further insight into this thread - to backup what Cindy had said. There is no doubt that some are called to be the first fruits (elect for this age). James 1:18 “Having counseled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being certain first fruit of His creatures”. The trouble is that anyone, no matter their theological beliefs cannot possibly know (they can believe, but they cannot know) that they themselves will persevere to the end. That being said, most Calvinists do believe that they are among the ones called and chosen, but simple logic shows that to be ignorance, perhaps even willful ignorance so as to not worry about their salvation. Humans have a way of ‘wishing away’ things they don’t want to think about. They think if they trick themselves so subtly, maybe God will be fooled and accept that as an excuse. But truly, is God that stupid? He knows the motives of our heart.
I don’t have it all figured out, in fact, even though I am a convinced universalist, I cannot absolutely rule out annihilation. ECT? Well, in one sense I can rule it out. In another sense I cannot, as God can do what he desires. I cannot quite comprehend how God would endlessly torture, but I can comprehend Him not giving eternal (age during) life to those not deserving. But, then who is deserving? No one, of course, which brings us back full circle, in my opinion.
Paidion,
What I’m talking about is New Calvinism. It’s a recent movement within Christianity. I have trouble with eternal suffering but the rest is spot on.
Michael, I fail to see any doctrinal differences between the two, with the exception that the New Calvinists believe in continuationism with respect to the gifts of the spirit.