The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does judgment differ from believers and unbelievers?

What is the difference between the Great White Throne Judgement, The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Lake of Fire?

We will all be judged including believers, but aren’t believers’ sins already forgiven and forgotten? But that’s like saying if a Christian commits a horrible sin, all he/she has to do is repent then everything is A-Ok again. In the meantime, they’ve wrecked havoc in somebody’s life. Will they just get away with it? Dont they have to pay for that sin at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

And how is the Judgment Seat of Christ different then the Great White Throne Judgement? And where does the Lake of Fire come in at? Isn’t that also a judgment?

Are they all basically the same thing?

I am totally confused at these three. I know what conventional Christianity teaches but i need to know what the UE folks believe scripture says.

Jesus is the judge of both believers and unbelievers. Both will stand at the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. The books will be open (plural) and another book was open which is the book of life. You will be judged according to your works as an unbeliever and a believer. Works meaning how you represented Jesus on earth as a believer. Both believers and unbelievers will be judged for every word, thought and deed. Your works will be tried by fire 1 Cor 3:13-15. Either your works will be rewarded or burned up. Then the book of life is opened to determine your eternal destiny. If you are found recorded in the book of life you spend eternity with God. If you are not found in the book of life you experience the second death and are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I dont believe that at all. The book of Life is symbolic for Christ, and all will be written in Him. As for the second death. Too many Christians share the same problem when they read scripture. They read the print and attempt to interpret is with their carnal minds. I dont want to tell you what the second death is symbolic for because that is off topic, and has nothing to do with todays Christians and future Christians. The second death is past fullfilled prophecy.

Sword of Manticore

Boy are you in for a rude awakening.

And how is that? Because I believe that Christ’s victory is 100%, instead if the 1% that I have been told are probably saved? That is a slap in the face of our Saviour who leaves the other 99% behind to be torture so He can save the one sheep.

Caroleem,

Scripture usually, if not always, links judgment with works, how we actually live our lives and what we do with what God gives us in life. How is judgment different for believers and unbelievers? Believers actually have more to be accountable for. We have been blessed with the revelation of the Lamb and faith in Him and are thus accountable to live in the love and grace that we’ve been given. The steward that had been forgiven his debt was expected to forgive others. It was the children of Israel accountable to live by the Law, not the Gentiles.

Concerning the purpose of judgment, I believe the purpose of judgment is righteousness, to restore us to righteousness. In order for us to embrace the forgiveness and grace of God we must come face to face with the truth concerning our lives. When we face the King and our debt is fully revealed and we realize the depths of his forgiveness and love for us, love and gratefulness will flow from us like a river, for some people it will be like the Hoover Damn bursting forth! And those who have been forgiven the most will love God the most. Of course, the more we’ve been given now, so who has the more to be forgiven of, the man who never knew love in this life and was enslaved by a spirit of murder from childhood and spent most his life in a physical prison, or the man who knew love from childhood but did not submit to love and instead hated his brother? I’m glad that God is the judge and I’m glad that the purpose of judgment is righteousness and justice, making things right.

As to the correct interpretation of John’s visions in Revelation, well, your guess is as good as mine. How does one interpret Picasso’s Guernica? John doesn’t interpret his visions and neither do any other NT authors. Visions and apocalyptic literature by their very nature are open to a wide range of interpretations. The more I study John’s Revelation the more I think it was meant to speak to us emotionally more than logically, spiritually more than mentally! It’s meant to artistically reveal the glory and majesty of Jesus. It is the Revelation of Jesus, who He Is! It’s about Jesus, different movie clips (visions) revealing different aspects of who He Is through a powerful means of communication - art! John’s Revelations are not sytematic theology, but artistic theology.

In the vision “the Great White Throne Judgment”, Jesus is the Lamb who was slain for all humanity and interceeds for us. On the judgment seat of Christ, He is the Judge, the one who makes things right, the righteous judge. And the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone (Dead Sea) speaks of the judgment of God, Jesus, on all evil, especially judgment of gross evil that comes in this life like with Sodom and Gomorrah.

The other day a friend asked me about what happens at judgment with the unbelieving Muslem. I replied that frankly I was more worried about judgment for me than, let’s say, a Muslem woman who had never heard of Jesus and was trapped in the oppression of her culture. I’ve known about the Lord and his goodness since childhood, but have not walked in the grace and love revealed to me. She’s, well, had little, if any, revelation of the love of God. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, I’d be the rich man and she Lazarus. And in the parable of the talents, I’d be the man with 10 talents, but acting like a man with 3 talents; she might not even have a 1/2 a talent and has used it every day just to stay alive.

I’m thankful that God is a righteous judge and trust that He takes all these things into account. I think we’re all going to be very surprised at judgment, especially those of us who think pretty well of ourselves. I’ve encountered the judgment of God a few times and it burnt the hell out of me. One time I cried for 2 weeks, weeping and gnashing my teeth. My family was concerned that I had lost my mind. God uncovered to me the evil in my own heart and it was overwhelming, though He also assured me of His forgiveness and love. I was reconciled to the fact that I’m and mess and everyone I know is a mess, that there is no part of me that is pure, unspoiled, not polluted and poisoned by my selfishness. It was terrible medicine, but it worked in me a tremendous love of God.

These series of encounters with the judgment of God was in response to a crazy prayer that I asked after reading the story of the woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. I was about 24 and said, “Lord, you said that those who have been forgiven the most, love the most. But you know I’ve lead a relatively clean life compared with this woman. I love you but I want to love you more, with as much passion as this woman displayed. How can I do that though? I don’t think I should go sin more so that I can be forgiven more, but what can I do? I love you but I want to love you more.”

Well, over the next couple of years the Lord showed me just how messed up I really was, prideful, selfish, selfrighteous, lazy, wicked, twisted in my thinking, etc., until I came to realize that there was nothing good in me, though I had been loved and treated well all my life. It is a terrible thing to face the truth concerning yourself! But in facing and embracing the truth concerning myself, I also faced and embraced the love and forgiveness of God that forever changed me. I was freed from judgmentalism, selfrighteousness, and pride - the most deceptive and destructive of all wickedness! It was a life-changing revelation.

Sadly, the traditional doctrine of the church that makes judgment about Exclusion instead of Reconciliation, and bases it on faith alone instead of on how we actually live, has turned Judgment upside down and inside out, someday instead of today, and reduced it’s power to impact lives today for good. Most judgment passages are addressed to believers, those who should know better, who know the goodness, love, and covenants of God for us. They are meant to call us believers to right living. But by misinterpreting them to be about damning unbelievers it nullifies these passages of their power because, well, believers say they are for unbelievers, and unbelievers don’t care what they say because they don’t believe and even see themselves as as good as most believers. So no one, believer of unbeliever, submits themselves to the judgment revealed in those passages, and it confuses the whole issue of salvation being by the grace and love of God for all humanity.

Sherman I’ve had a similar experience, I’m not sure if yours was all at once or over that time period? Mine happened about a year ago the instant before the message of UR was given to me. Well I guess it came to a head in an instant, God had been revealing to me how ugly my sin really was more and more over the course of a week or two. Like you I thought I was doing a pretty good job, although had been struggling with recurrent sin for a long time. Finally when I told Him I’d give Him every last bit of me, whatever I’d been holding back I was transported in a vision where I walked out of a dark cave, at the edge of the cave was a cliff, which I stepped over, I fell but didn’t fall, in the entire open space was God’s presence like the sun. I was falling but standing and His presence was almost too much to bear, it hurt but felt good, I couldn’t stand yet He kept standing me up. I wanted to fall over because I was so unclean and unworthy, yet He kept telling me I love you which came from the inside and burned the darkness from the inside out. My sins were laid bare before Him and that hurt but He kept picking me up with I love you, until I finally let go of all the sin and condemnation and fell into His love.

I’m not really sure how long it lasted it seemed like a long time, but I think it was not so long in our time maybe a minute or two.

Right after that was when He gave me the word Eternal, which I then searched for is hell eternal online and the rest is history.

what an amazing day it was. I went into a bit of a depression a couple weeks later because I kept expecting to have more experiences like that. This world was no longer enough.

For me it was a revelation that came over a period of several years, a vision, 2 encouters with the Word as I read, and finally meditating for about 3 months on one verse, “all my righteousness is as filthy rags.” In the first vision I was in a body, not my own, looking through the eyes of that body at the body’s right hand which had been cut off the arm and was lying on the ground. A clear tube of blood was coming from somewhere over my, the body’s head and was pumping blood into the hand, which flowed out of the veins onto the ground making a bloody muddy mess. It was a horific site. And the Lord spoke to me and said that my pride had cut me off from the body of Christ. It broke my heart. I repented, asked forgiveness and saw the left hand pick up the right hand and attach it back to the body. After the left hand passed over the wound, the right hand was fully attached, no bleeding, and even no scar. I was humbled, to say the least.

Some months later I was reading the 7 woes to the Pharisees in Mt. 23 and the Lord spoke to me at one point and said, “That’s the way you are.” And I understood that several of the attitudes of the Pharisees that He was condemning, I still had. For example, much of what I did, my acts of goodness and kindness were partly motivated by the desire to be respected by others. Selfishness polluted my good works. At this revelation I cried for two weeks.

And then several months later I was reading the parable of the talents. After reading the judgment of the unfaithful servant, the Lord spoke to me and said, “That’s the way you are, except I’ve given you 10 talents.” As I meditated on this Word and this passage, the Lord revealed that not only was I selfish and Lazy, but that my beliefs concerning God were warped which produced in me paralyzing fear. This revelation changed me for the good.

A couple of years later, while in seminary, a scripture kept coming to mind. For about 3 months, I’d find myself unconsciously pondering the passage which says that “all my righteousness is as filthy rags.” I thought I understood the passage, but I didn’t until one day when the Lord showed me that everything about me was polluted with selfishness, even my love for my wife and children. And I realized the depth of the pollution. It was like taking good clean water and crapping and peeing in it, making it just plain ole nasty.

So, everything about me was unclean, nasty. This revelation turned out to be very liberating. I accepted that I’m a mess and there is nothing I can do about it. And everyone I know is a mess and yet God loves us all. I stopped focusing on or worrying about my nastyness or anyone elses. I stopped trying to be perfect and just focused on the Perfect One. And I stopped being so negative towards others, especially other Christians. The truth of the passage was very humbling and yet very liberating.

Well, that was some 19 years ago, but it wasn’t until about 3 years ago that I began seeing UR as even a possibility. I suppose, personally encountering the judgment of God and realizing just how much of a mess I am and how great His love and forgiveness is set me up to be open to UR. I figure if God can save me, the worst sinner I know, He can save anyone. I realized that salvation is completely an act of God, that it’s only through being saved from slavery to sin that we can even choose to not sin. I realized that I really have never sought after God, but He sought me. I didn’t choose Him, but He chose me. These revelations changed me. The lights came on and the darkness was gone.

So when I started seeing that scripture does not affirm ECT, but does repeatedlly affirm UR, well, I could understand how that could be because I realized fully that Jesus saved me inspite of myself. If He can save me through judgment, and all are judged, then all shall be saved.

Sherman and RHM,

Wow! What wonderful stories God has given you tell! Thank you so much for sharing them. :smiley: You have blessed me.

I think that if you are not a persevering Christian that is dying to the flesh nature, and are continually and actively resisting the Spirit then the judgement will torment you until your will is changed, as much as those who have never confessed Yeshua as Lord. I think this matches the judgement Israel endured throughout the Hebrew scriptures: they experience the wages of sin and are brought to despair until they will for their delivery and repent. If you have persevered in the faith, you will pass through the refining fire without any suffering (Revelation 2:11). Though I’m not sure I would claim that honour for myself. I think it’s theoretically possible that Saints (those venerated by the RC, EO and some protestant churches) could have passed through the second/other death completely in this life. But I doubt it’s ever been done.

Yahweh is interested in hearts that act reciprocally and honestly. Not lips that are forced or lie in their praises. So I think the only difference between the two judgements, what really matters, is your will (and how that is manifested in works). If you have a will that embraces Yahweh then you will not be tormented in His presence. If you hate Yahweh you will endure His fierce love as suffering. I think it’s likely that some non-Christians will require less time and torment to repent than some Christians® will.

I agree heartily.

In Revelation we see three sets of people, those who dwell in heaven, those who dwell on the earth, and those who dwell in the sea.

People don’t really live in the sea, and we know that the sea is also a metaphor for the place of death. Also Jesus called us to be fishers of men, which is pulling people from the sea. This is the grape harvest

Those who dwell on the earth I see as christians who have not overcome. They are still focused on the things of the earth. They are dominated by the man of dust, not the man of heaven. These are also those who take the mark of the beast. This is the wheat harvest

Those who dwell in the heavens are the overcomers, also those who have been beheaded for Christ. If they’ve been beheaded then they can allow the true head Christ to reign in their bodies. This is the barley harvest

Ahh! so I’m not alone in my ravings about the 3 harvests :wink:

No you are not.

I think this may be one of the things that brings about a new wave of understanding for many christians. Jesus speaks of harvests, and most christians know the verse the about the harvest being ready.

Also just wanted to add that the 3 harvests correspond to the HOH, Holy place, and outer court

Yes…

The overcomers
The rest of the carnal christians
The rest of us :wink:

Consider the Eastern Orthodox view:

Everyone, at the end, will be “judged” according to their perception of God’s love, which is pleasing fire for those who love him, and tormenting fire for those who don’t. Faith, and the Church, is then the method by which believers learn to love, essentially.