Dave B replying to qaz.
And what would happen, if the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) occurred tomorrow…and we had no guns, to defend ourselves?
That should end the debate right there!!! 
I see your point, but the mass shootings add a very little to the total amount of shootings. And, a defenseless citizenry would surely be victimized even more by bad actors, way offsetting the net gain.
Of course, it’s horrible to even think of ‘net gain’ when it comes to human lives.
How about we help restore the dignity and worth of all life by ending senseless murder of innocent lives by abortion - that would send a great message. And stop glorifying Hollywood’s extreme violence and sexual conquest as a model for young men? And stop the hours-long marathons of extreme video gaming? I mean, what are we teaching people with those things - mass abortion, Hollywood, violent ‘games’ that immerse people in that stuff?
And the fatherless one-parent homes, where the men are sending a message as well, that is being perpetuated?
If those things are not addressed, removing half the guns is going to do nothing. $.02
Of all the causes of death listed here below, abortion is not one of them. Why?
I don’t want to sound too crazy (yeah yeah, too late :-)) but could those 60 million deaths possible result in judgment on America?
[quote=“DaveB, post:1999, topic:6062, full:true”]
ALL of us, Bob?
Yes, I observe that tendency. Who is it that you think especially does not tend to like statistical facts when they support their beliefs?
I’m not seeing how the stats you offer challenge any of my observations. Could you just say what you mean, and spell it out?
(My impression is that you imply that differing approaches to reducing homicides mustn’t be compared, because American culture is inferior to each of the other affluent nations, and thus can’t learn anything relevant from these more liberal societies’ approaches?)
I was totally agreeing to your comment on statistical facts. I drew attention to ‘all’.
I don’t know that much about other cultures - obviously not as much as you. Nevertheless, I do know this one, and am willing to face the fact that it is sliding, fast, downhill. And guns have nothing to do with that, causally. Other factors have been listed, let him who has ears…etc.
I understand you, Bob, I just disagree it seems, on every point. But I give reasons.
We had the same dust-up when it came to the transgender issue.
That’s a catchy line. What don’t you understand?
In any case I’ll give you the last word, this particular argument has gone as far as I care to. People can read and make up their own minds.
Being fatherless has nothing to do with killing. Me and my brother were fatherless and we’ve never killed anybody. He has a bachelors in economics and Master’s in Business. I’ve been diagnosed schizoaffective (bipolar type). I don’t have it in my heart to commit a mass shooting. Many with mental disorders aren’t violent. Therey’s quite successful. Here’s a small list of famous people and/or rich celebrities with mental illness
Abbie Hoffman
bipolar disorder
Abraham Lincoln
severe clinical depression
Adam Ant (Stuart Goddard)
bipolar
Adam Rickett
bulimia nervosa
Alanis Morissette
clinical depression
Alastair Campbell
depression
Albert Einstein
dyslexia (speculated)
Alexander Graham Bell
dyslexia
Alfred Taubman
dyslexia
Ally Sheedy
bulimia nervosa; substance abuse
Alma Powell
clinical depression
Alonzo Spellman
bipolar disorder
Alvin Ailey
bipolar disorder (aka “manic depression”)
Amy Heckerling
eating disorders; obsessive-compulsive disorder
Angelina Jolie
depression and self harm
Anne Sexton
clinical depression
Ann-Margret
clinical depression; alcoholism
Art Buchwald
bipolar disorder
Audrey Hepburn
clinical depression; eating disorders
Axl Rose
bipolar disorder
Barbara Niven
bulimia nervosa
Barbra Streisand
social phobia
Ben Moody
depression
Ben Stiller
bipolar disorder
Ben Vereen
clinical depression
Benjamin Disraeli
clinical depression
Bert Yancey
bipolar disorder
Bill Lichtenstein
bipolar disorder
Bill Oddie
bipolar
Billy Joel
alcohol and depression
Billy Joel
clinical depression
Boris Yeltsin
clinical depression
Brian Wilson
bipolar disorder
Britney Spears
bipolar and post natal depression
Brooke Shields
postpartum depression
Burgess Meredith
bipolar disorder
Buzz Aldrin
clinical depression
Calvin Coolidge
clinical depression (speculated)
Carly Simon
social phobia
Carmen Miranda
clinical depression
Caroline Aherne
major depressive disorder
Carrie Fisher
bipolar disorder, substance abuse;
Cary Grant
clinical depression
catherine zeta jones
bipolar II
Charles “Buddy” Bolden
schizophrenia
Charles Darwin
severe panic disorder
Charles Dickens
clinical depression; bipolar disorder (suspected)
Charles Faust
schizophrenia
Charles Schulz
clinical depression
Charles Schwab
dyslexia
Charley Pell
clinical depression
Charley Pride
bipolar disorder; alcoholism
Clara Bow
clinical depression
Cole Porter
clinical depression; alcoholism; paranoid delusions; obsessive-compulsive disorder (speculated)
Connie Francis
clinical depression
Courtney Love
drub abuse, clinical depression
Craig Ferguson
alcoholic
Craig McCaw
dyslexia
Dame Kelly Holmes
depression and self harm
Damon Wayans
clinical depression
Daniel Johns
clinical depression; anxiety disorder;eating disorder
Danny Glover
learning disability
Darryl Strawberry
clinical depression
David Boies
dyslexia
David Bowie
crying but not diagnosed but lots of family mental health issues
David Murdock
dyslexia
Delta Burke
depression and compulsive hoarding
Denise Welch
nervous breakdown
Diane Arbus
clinical depression
Dick Cavett
depression – found electro shock therapy helpful
Dick Clark
clinical depression
Dimitrius Underwood
bipolar disorder
DMX
bipolar
Dolly Parton
clinical depression
Donny Osmond
clinical depression; social phobia
Dorothy Day
clinical depression
Doug Ferrari
borderline personality disorder
Doug Flutie, Jr.
autism
Drew Barrymore
clinical depression; alcoholism, substance abuse;
Drew Carey
clinical depression
Dwight Gooden
clinical depression
Earl Campbell
panic disorder
Edgar Allan Poe
clinical depression (speculated); alcoholism
Edward McVaney
dyslexia
Elizabeth Hartman
clinical depression (speculated)
Elton John
substance abuse and bulimia
Emily Carr
various speculations, neurasthenia; hypochondriasis; clinical depression; conversion disorder; schizophrenia:
Emma Thompson
clinical depression
Eric Clapton
clinical depression
Ernest Hemingway
clinical depression
Eugene O’Neill
clinical depression
F. Scott Fitzgerald
clinical depression
Fiona Phillips
depression
Frances Lear
bipolar disorder;, substance abuse
Francis Ford Coppola
bipolar disorder
Frank Bruno
bipolar
Frank Lloyd Wright
clinical depression
Gaetano Donizetti
bipolar disorder
Gail Porter
post natal depression
George Eliot (Marian Evans)
clinical depression
George Michael
depression and fear
George S. Patton
clinical depression; dyslexia
George Washington
learning disability
Georgia O’Keeffe
clinical depression
Graeme Obree
depression
Halle Berry
suicide attempt
Harrison Ford
clinical depression
Harry Andersen
learning disability
Hart Crane
clinical depression; alcoholism
Heath Ledger
depression, anxiety and sleep depravation
Henry Winkler
learning disability
Herb McCauley
bulimia nervosa
Hermann Hesse
clinical depression
Herschel Walker
dissociative identity disorder
Howard Hughes
OCD (clinical depression and psychosis both speculated
Howard Stern
obsessive-compulsive disorder
Howie Mandel
obsessive-compulsive disorder
Hugh Laurie
depression
Hunter Tylo
clinical depression
Irving Berlin
clinical depression
Isaac Newton
bipolar disorder (suspected)
J.P. Morgan
bipolar disorder
Jack Dee
depression
Jack Farrell
clinical depression
Jack Irons
bipolar disorder
Jack Kerouac
clinical depression, substance abuse, severe alcoholism;
Jackson Pollock
clinical depression; substance abuse
Jaco Pastorius
bipolar disorder; alcoholism; substance abuse
James Dean Bradfield
bipolar
James Forrestal
clinical depression
James Garner
clinical depression
James Taylor
clinical depression; bipolar disorder
Jane Fonda
bulimia nervosa
Jane Pauley
bipolar
Janet Jackson
clinical depression
Jean-Claude Van Damme
bipolar disorder
Jessica Alba
OCD and eating disorder
Jessica Lange
clinical depression
Jim Carrey
clinical depression
Jimmy Piersall
bipolar disorder
Joan Rivers
clinical depression; bulimia nervosa
Joey Kramer
clinical depression
Joey Slinger
clinical depression
John Chambers
dyslexia
John Daly
bipolar disorder; alcoholism, gambling addiction;
John Forbes Nash
schizophrenia (paranoid-type)
John Gibson
bipolar disorder
John Kenneth Galbraith
clinical depression
John Madden
specific phobia (flying)
John Mulheren
bipolar disorder
John Nash
schizophrenia
John Quincy Adams
clinical depression
Jose Canseco
clinical depression
Joshua Logan
bipolar disorder
Judy Garland
clinical depression;,substance abuse
Jules Feiffer
clinical depression
Julie Krone
post-traumatic stress disorder; clinical depression
Justine Bateman
eating disorders
Karen Carpenter
anorexia nervosa
Karen Kain
clinical depression
Kate Millett
bipolar disorder
Katie Price/Jordan
post natal depression
Keisha Buchanan
depression
Kendall Gill
clinical depression
Kim Basinger
panic disorder
Kitty Dukakis
bipolar disorder, alcoholism; substance abuse;
Kris Kristopherson
clinical depression; substance abuse
Kristy McNichol
bipolar disorder
Kurt Cobain
attention deficit disorder and bipolar depression
Kurt Vonnegut
clinical depression/bipolar
Kylie Minogue
depression
Larry Flynt
bipolar disorder
Larry King
clinical depression
Lawton Chiles
clinical depression
Lenny Henry
depression
Leo Tolstoy
clinical depression; hypochondriasis; alcoholism; substance abuse
Leonard Bernstein
clinical depression
Leonard Cohen
clinical depression
Lewis Preston
dyslexia
Linda Hamilton
bipolar disorder
Lionel Aldridge
schizophrenia (paranoid-type)
Lord Bragg
depression
Ludwig van Beethoven
bipolar disorder
Macy Gray
bipolar
Marc Summers
obsessive-compulsive disorder
Margaret Trudeau Kemper
bipolar disorder
Margaux Hemingway
dyslexia; alcoholism; clinical depression (speculated)
Margot Kidder
manic depression (Bipolar) and paranoia
Marie Osmond
clinical depression, post-partum
Marilyn Monroe
clinical depression/suicide
Mark Rothko
clinical depression
Marsha Linehan
bpd
Meg Mathews
depression
Mel C:
depression
Mel Gibson
bipolar
Melinda Messenger
depression
Meriwether Lewis
clinical depression
Michael Phelps
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
Mike Tyson
depression and severe insecurities and anger
Mike Wallace
clinical depression
Morrissey (S.P.)
clinical depression
Murray Pezim
bipolar disorder
Natalie Cole
clinical depression
Ned Beatty
bipolar disorder
Neil Lennon
depression
Neil Simon
clinical depression
Nelson Rockefeller
dyslexia
Nicole Kidman
panic attacks on the red carpet
Norman Mailer
clinical depression
Ozzy Osbourne
bipolar
Pablo Picasso
clinical depression
Pat Lafontaine
clinical depression
Patricia Cornwell
bipolar disorder, anorexia nervosa, anorexia bulimia;;
Patrick Kennedy
clinical depression
Patsy Palmer
depression and panic attacks
Patty Duke
bipolar disorder
Paul Gascoigne
clinical depression
Paul Simon
clinical depression
Paula Abdul
bullimia nervosa
Paula Deen
Agoraphobia and panic attacks
Pete Harnisch
clinical depression
Peter Gabriel
clinical depression
Peter Greene
schizophrenia
Phil Spector
clinical depression/bipolar
Pierre Péladeau
bipolar disorder
Princess Diana
Bulimia nevosa, depression and multiple suicide attempts
Queen Victoria
clinical depression
Ray Charles
clinical depression
Richard Branson
dyslexia
Richard Dreyfuss
clinical depression/bipolar
Richard Simmons
anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa;
Richey James
clinical depression, anorexia nervosa;;alcoholism
Rick Springfield
clinical depression
Ricky Williams
social phobia
Robbie Williams
depression
Robert Boorstin
bipolar disorder
Robert Campeau
bipolar disorder
Robert Lowell
bipolar disorder
Robert McFarlane
clinical depression
Robert Munsch
bipolar disorder
Robert Young
clinical depression; alcoholism
Robin Williams
clinical depression, learning disability;
Rod Steiger
clinical depression
Rodney Dangerfield
clinical depression
Roseanne
dissociative identity disorder (aka “multiple personality disorder”); obsessive-compulsive disorder; clinical depression; agoraphobia
Rosemary Clooney
bipolar
Ruby Wax
depression
Russell Grant
depression
Sandra Dee
anorexia nervosa
Sarah Lancashire
depression
Sarah McLachlan
clinical depression
Scott Donie
clinical depression
Shayne Corson
panic attacks
Shecky Greene
bipolar disorder, with severe panic attacks
Sheryl Crow
clinical depression
Sigmund Freud
clinical depression
Sinead O’Connor
bipolar
Sir Anthony Hopkins
clinical depression
Sir Elton John
bulimia nervosa; substance abuse, alcoholism;
Sophie Anderton
drug addiction and depression
Spencer Tracy
clinical depression; alcoholism
Spike Milligan
bipolar disorder
Stephen Fry
bipolar depression
Steve Blass
social phobia
Steve Sax
social phobia
Sting (Gordon Sumner)
clinical depression
Susan Powter
clinical depression
Syd Barrett
schizophrenia
Sylvia Plath
clinical depression
Tammy Wynette
clinical depression, substance abuse;
Ted Turner
bipolar disorder
Tennessee Williams
clinical depression
Theodore Dreiser
clinical depression
Thomas Alva Edison
dyslexia
Thomas Eagleton
clinical depression
Tiberius
clinical depression (speculated)
Tipper Gore
clinical depression
Tom Cruise
dyslexia
Tony Slattery
bipolar
Tracey Gold
anorexia nervosa, attention deficit disorder;
Tracy Thompson
clinical depression
Trisha Goddard
depression
Tulisa’s mum
Tulisa’s mum had scizoaffective disorder
Uma Thurman
depression
Vaslav Nijinsky
schizophrenia
Veronica Lake
schizophrenia; alcoholism
Vincent Foster
clinical depression (speculated)
Vincent van Gogh
clinical depression; bipolar disorder (speculated)
Vivien Leigh
bipolar disorder after miscarriage
Walker Percy
clinical depression
Walt Disney
dyslexia
Whoopi Goldberg
dyslexia
William Hewlett
dyslexia
William Styron
clinical depression
Winona Ryder
clinical depression; anxiety
Winston Churchill
bipolar disorder; dyslexia
Woodrow Wilson
dyslexia
Yves Saint Laurent
clinical depression
Thanks Dave. I’m hearing your clarifying response here as a “yes” to my guess that your understanding is that American culture is especially deteriorating, and thus can’t learn from other nations’ approach to violence. I see no reason to believe that, and disagree that we are sliding worse that other affluent nations in whom I also see deterioration. I think we could become at least as healthy as they currently are.
Your comparison to discussions of how to treat those who imagine they are transgender is interesting, but I’m not seeing how that involves the same issues.
Though as I predicted before, our interpretations about the data of current events differs, the neat thing is that my interpretation of the Biblical material tends to be as affirming of yours as anyone else on the forum
Well, sometimes I imagine I’m trans-zombie. Then I see a pretty woman and start singing - the right love song!
Nice sharing, Hollytree - on mental illness. I loved it!
And speaking of guns and zombies!
Dang I got sucked back in. I have no will power 
I did not say it was the same issue, Bob. The same dust-up yes.
Maybe these aren’t facts (below) but it is interesting that the enlightened Europeans are knocking children off at even a greater rate than we are.
The slaughter of the innocents is perhaps a rather big log in the world’s eye than almost anything else? Maybe, but the vast number of libs in this country would rather talk about guns - both important subjects.
Mass shootings = hundreds or thousands a year? Nosiree. Since 1950 all mass shootings have happened in areas where it is against the law to carry a handgun, as far as I can tell. Unarmed citizens. If teachers were armed, if theaters had armed guards, almost all of these would have been stopped. If criminals have guns and noone else, we’re in a world of hurt.
Just look at this recent story, regarding the woman from Chicago:
I don’t see differing interpretations as a “dust-up,” but don’t you see that your observation totally supports my case that European culture is not superior to ours, and that blaming our inability to compete with their lower level of deadly shootings oughtn’t be blamed on some supposedly worse downhill slide of American culture?
qaz, where do you live and what circumstances do you deal with every day in life, are you or have you ever been put in a position where your life was either at stake or in trouble?
I call it a dust-up, Bob, but I think we mean the same thing - differing opinions stated forcefully. I’m fine with it myself.
Yes I do get it about European culture, and thanks for the insight. Really.
And in fact I almost completely agree with the quote above.
We could quibble a bit about the word ‘supposedly’ but I see no point in that.
All in all, well done conversation on a very hot subject.
And yes we seem to align peacefully and imo wisely on the theological matter. Thank goodness
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Qaz, this is about what I’ve been finding as to ‘mass shootings’. Still a sad number.
And yes we seem to align peacefully and imo wisely on the theological matter. Thank goodness
One major reason why most gun deaths don’t involve the mass shootings that encourage a sense of fearful vulnerability, is that most U.S. gun deaths do not involve bad guys or malicious shootings. They mostly involve those who found a sure fire way to expedite their death in a moment of despair, as well as family accidental shooting deaths and quarrels, etc. So I think one reason we lose more to these causes than affluent nations who also have depressed folk, etc, is that our belief that having guns everywhere makes us safer, also makes it awful handy to commit suicide in a quick moment.
Here you go Qaz, let us know if you find interesting stuff.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.32017aaa9051
Any murder victim is tragic, I totally agree.
There have been some notable European massacres of course.
And about that 7x greater chance of getting murdered here, there are some distinctions to be made,
Check out the last paragraph, for instance: Just stuff to think about, I’m open to new info at any time so keep me posted.
A 2016 article by the American Journal of Medicine claims that homicide rates in the U.S. are 7 times higher than an average of other “high income countries.” This conclusion is based on a select list of OECD nations compiled in 2010. The lowest income nation on the list is Hungary, where per capita GDP is $28,000 per year. Turkey and Mexico did not make the cut because their per capita GDPs are respectively $25,000 and $19,000. Latvia and Estonia are not on this list, presumably because Latvia joined the OECD in 2016 and Estonia joined in December of 2010. Turkey, Estonia, and Latvia have murder rates comparable to those in the U.S. Mexico exceeds the U.S. by about 4 times. Most would agree that Mexico is not “high income” but the case for excluding these other three nations is not as clear cut.
If the list were to include all of Eastern Europe, Russian and Lithuania would surpass the U.S. in homicides per capita. Only when the U.S. is compared with affluent Western nations that were never under the iron curtain does its murder rate far exceed all other in the sample. The AJM attributes this grim statistic to high levels of gun ownership in the U.S., but the authors fail to point out that two of the safest nations in the world (Switzerland and Finland) rank 3rd and 4th in per capita gun ownership.
The U.S. has almost double the gun ownership rate of Finland and (according to a table in the AJM article) 12 times the gun homicide rate. Does this mean there is a “critical mass” for gun ownership where the murder rate increases exponentially? If this is true, why do heartland states with the highest levels of gun ownership have some of the lowest murder rates in the U.S.?
Read more: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/04/why_it_is_misleading_to_compare_the_us_murder_rate_with_that_of_western_europe.html#ixzz5cS2hTdUQ
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From a practical stand point, I don’t want to own a gun. I have children and I would not want the risk of my children gaining access. I know there are safes, but kids are pretty clever. Anyhow, I also would never want to conceal or carry. I am human and prone to anger, just like everyone else. Who is to say that I might not rage over something and use it? Ok, so I doubt I ever would, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen.
However, if I lived in a very high crime rate area, I might own one. It really depends on the situation and risk/benefit ratio.
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You also need to be very careful, that you document everything. In the case of police or civil lawsuits. One of my favorite TV channels is
Where they deal with murders - most foil. In one case, this couple lived in an apartment complex. And this weird or crazy guy, didn’t like their dog - when it barked. So he came down and broke open their door - with an ax. Then he threatened to kill the dog and the guy. But he had a gun and was video recording the whole event. Well, he had to shoot the guy three times. When police arrived, he put down the gun. But the video recording cleared him.