How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

[Paidion]

Capitalism has rescued the entire world, wherever it has sway. Read your history.

Dave, a lot depends on how you define “capitalism.” Contrary to common opinion in United States and Canada, “capitalism” is not tantamount to “free enterprise.” If it were, I would be fully supportive of it!
Is it your understanding, Dave, that the two are synonymous? If they were synonymous, then what did the Social Credit Party of Canada mean when they declared that were a free-enterprise party but not a capitalist party?

Consider the following definition of “capitalism”:

A system in which private or corporate wealth (capital) is used in the production and distribution of goods resulting in the dominance of private owners of capital and production for profit in such a way that wealth (capital) becomes concentrated in the hands of a minority.

Isn’t that precisely what has happened in United States? A few billionaires and multi-billionaires owning the “lion’s portion” of the wealth, while millions live in poverty?

Also, I think we should be clear what we mean when we use the word “socialism.” In its purest form, socialism is a political, social, and economic system meant to empower the working class. It is not a system in which the government owns and controls all industry and means of production; that’s Communism. It is true that socialist countries tend to tax citizens heavily so that there is provision for the poor. How else could such provision be made? Socialist countries also provide such services as “free medical treatment.” Canada is one of these. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that in United States many people, have gone broke after paying or trying to pay their heavy medical bills.

[steve7150]

The Left wants to bring it down. Obviously, overwhelming success is not enough - socialism is the answer! Power to the elite socialists!
I’m going to try even harder to keep off this thread. Wish me luck.

I wouldn’t fret about it, this is not the kingdom of God, it’s still Satan’s kingdom and people will be deceived and some willingly.
As for “the Left”, politics is their religion and power is their god. Trump stands in the way of their acquisition of power so logic and reason and facts will not sway corruption.

[steve7150]

Capitalism has rescued the entire world, wherever it has sway. Read your history.

Yes, just think about all the things we take for granted when we wake up. We turn on the lights, we meander down to the Fridge, We shower with running water, we use electricity, use our cell phones, turn on the TV, use the stove, drive someplace, text someone, use the internet, drive to dinner, fly someplace, etc etc. All these things we take for granted came from Capitalism! None came from Socialism, None from Communism, none fell from the sky!

[Bob_Wilson]

I’m just saying - members have been dumping on me over and over and over and yes, over. No good thing is said about the USA, the Trumper…

Jepne recently said, “Things have gone extremely well in every respect of Trump’s presidency.” Hermano said, “Mueller was biased and sought to manipulate witnesses to destroy Trump.” Inverness repeatedly has praised Trump. MM regularly affirms the policies you like. ETC. Take heart, I often feel like the only American here who has reservations about the president’s character and approach.

I didn’t intend to dump on you (I praised much of what you said), but only asked as one impressed with the Nordic approach, if your assertion that this model is not “the way that Democrats want our country to go” was contrary to fact. You responded that I was full of “malarkey.” So I asked if key dems haven’t actually lifted up Nordic systems as a model. Your only curious response seems to be that you’ve felt personally attacked by insufficient praise for Mr. Trump. But especially without engaging questions, I’m not sure expecting everyone to share our own political allegiances is realistic.

[steve7150]

So I asked if key dems haven’t actually lifted up Nordic systems as a model.

The Nordic models are not Socialism as the former Prime Ministers of Sweden and Denmark both criticized Bernie for using their countries as examples. These countries are market based with large welfare benefits, but they have very small populations. Socialist countries would be Venezeula ,Cuba,Bolivia and Nicaragua. Of course there are different shades of these different systems around.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Once could set up their own, offshore country. But according to the BBC today…It got some US citizens, in trouble - near Thailand.

Perhaps folks can set up, their own offshore countries. We can have Zombieland, Dave 2.0 land, Davo land, etc…

Thai navy hunt couple over 'sea home'

Here’s an informative video and discussion, for everyone!

How can I create my own country/nation that is recognized by other countries?

[antiquarian]

NOT ONE of you even responded to, say, the list of 200 accomplishments so far by Trump. Not One. What’s the matter with you? I believe the Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real thing - I don’t know how else to explain the hatred, for Trump and for America, the idiocy of the press and the worship of that press especially in other countries - you know who you are - that only understand the world through hateful rhetoric from the Left, because - oh my - we elected Trump.

There’s the obvious cognitive dissonance; after all, the media spent a year telling us that Trump was the worst possible candidate and that all hell would break loose if he were elected. But we have a bigger problem:

A quote from Mere Christianity

Unless we repent, many of us are going to end up in the universe of pure hatred mentioned above.

[Bob_Wilson]

So I asked if key dems haven’t actually lifted up Nordic systems as a model.

The Nordic models are not Socialism…

Right, so why does Trump and followers keep saying that all the dems are lifting up “socialism”?

[steve7150]

Right, so why does Trump and followers keep saying that all the dems are lifting up “socialism”?

I believe Bernie has called himself a Socialist & so has AOC and most of the rest are advocating Socialist policies like free Medicare for all while knowing the country can’t afford it.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I believe Bernie has called himself a Socialist & so has AOC and most of the rest are advocating Socialist policies like free Medicare for all while knowing the country can’t afford it.

Well, how can ALL other countries - even those considered “capitalistic” - afford it? Perhaps we should follow, one of their plans and models? Surely we can accomplish this, under the brilliant leadership of President Trump?

[Bob_Wilson]

Right, so why does Trump and followers keep saying that all the dems are lifting up “socialism”?

I believe Bernie has called himself a Socialist & so has AOC and most of the rest are advocating Socialist policies like free Medicare for all while knowing the country can’t afford it.

Exactly, but you insisted the Nordic model does not practice “socialism” (and many dems think it’s nuts to call themselves socialist). So when you admit Bernie wrongly calls the Nordic model (with state run healthcare) that he advocates “socialist,” but Trump shouts all the Dems are “Socialist,” you appear to be saying that Trump embraces the same mistaken conception of socialism that you and Dave criticized. I’m failing to see how you have it both ways.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Nordic model

Here are some informative articles

Nordic model

Is the “Nordic model” even socialist? If not, why do so many people think it is?

Let me quote a bit!

We don’t have to look further than Wikipedia. On the Nordic model:

The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism [1] or Nordic social democracy )[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state …[4][5]

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

We can’t blame Bernie, however. He just didn’t do his research. And suffers from a common illness…for folks who are public figures, saying and tweeting things…without doing the research or consulting in-house “experts” first.

[steve7150]

Exactly, but you insisted the Nordic model does not practice “socialism” (and many dems think it’s nuts to call themselves socialist). So when you admit Bernie wrongly calls the Nordic model (with state run healthcare) that he advocates “socialist,” but Trump shouts all the Dems are “Socialist,” you appear to be saying that Trump embraces the same mistaken conception of socialism that you and Dave criticized. I’m failing to see how you have it both ways.

I’m not sure i’m following you but i think you are saying the Nordic healthcare system is good but it’s not Socialism therefore we should use it as a template? I’m not against a Medicare for all OPTION along with private healthcare options as long as it’s affordable and doesn’t result in 6 month waiting periods and drive Doctors out of business.

[steve7150]

So which is it: Socialism can result in a good standard of living as demonstrated in the Nordic countries, or what Sanders wants isn’t socislism?

The Nordic countries don’t practice socialism but Sanders has called himself a Socialist. BTW Norway is surrounded by an ocean of oil to support a few million people. Venezuela a true Socialist country also is surrounded by an ocean of oil yet can’t feed it’s people, only a feat that Socialism or Communism can manage to pull off!

[steve7150]

We don’t have to look further than Wikipedia. On the Nordic model:

The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism [1] or Nordic social democracy )[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state …[4][5]

From HFZ

[steve7150]

The USA is the greatest country, on almost any level, the world has known. Capitalism has rescued the entire world, wherever it has sway. Read your history.

Amen Dave! although “the Left” is trying to abolish free speech and freedom of religion and impose groupthink!

[maintenanceman]

I often feel like the only American here who has reservations about the president’s character and approach.

THAT… THAT is a great point. From the standpoint of the Don’s behavior… as a father and family man I’m not sure I’d have him around my family. (though if the POTUS wanted to have dinner…)

But we all seem to ignore the fact that Mr Trump won a presidential election. As adverse and to be honest to many of you abhorrent the fact is, it is still a fact.

Actually I think this is a precursor to a crazy political time in America. And God help us.

[Bob_Wilson]

We all seem to ignore the fact that Mr.Trump won a presidential election us.

Sure, that must be why the other side reacts to him. They’ve forgotten that they lost

[Bob_Wilson]

“I think you are saying the Nordic healthcare system is good but it’s not Socialism, therefore why not use it as a template?”

Exactly, if you guys are right that the Scandinavian approach is actually capitalism, why not learn from their template that gets far better results? As an American pastor regularly visiting those in our system, I realize that Americans dissatisfaction with its’ costs and results are legion.

But when I spend many months in single-payer nations, I experience their system, and I can’t get them to stop telling me how blessed they feel to have that system. I’ve also know many Canadians who have lived in the states and loved it, but their biggest complaint is always how inferior our medical system is.

[steve7150]

But when I spend many months in single-payer nations, I experience their system, and I can’t get them to stop telling me how blessed they feel to have that system. I’ve also know many Canadians who have lived in the states and loved it, but their biggest complaint is always how inferior our medical system is.

That’s anecdotal info and so i have heard the opposite from a Canadian friend who complained about wait times and lack of quality of care. As i said before i’m not against a Medicare option as long as private care and private insurance are also available. My mother in law got sick in France years ago and she was placed in a huge non air conditioned room with very sick people with all kinds of maladies. She hated it more then i can describe and that was Socialized medicine. I definitely do not trust a non competitive single payer monopoly system.