How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

[maintenanceman]

I watched the Dem debate last night. Sanders and Warren seemed to be the only candidates on stage who recognize the injustice of a healthcare system that leaves people having to spend thousands of dollars a year out of pocket and countless hours dealing with insurance company representatives who are trying to find excuses to not cover medical services.

As an independant with conservative leanings, I do believe here in the US, we very well could have paid health care ‘for all’ just like ‘education for all’ but the problem is that our education system is in a shambles and parents are doing everything in their power to get their kids out of certain school systems and into private or selected schools. There is only so much $$$ to go around. The healthcare would end up being the same. Yes you would get free care but you would have to wait maybe months to end up seeing a half rate nurse practitioner who, to be honest and fair, aside from very minor ailments, would not have a clue as to how to treat you like a seasoned professional would.

But, from the Democratic view, that seems to be what people want. A Walmart Doctor.

[Bob_Wilson]

[quote=“maintenanceman, post:2652, topic:6062, full:true”]

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

The healthcare would end up being the same. Yes you would get free care but you would have to wait maybe months to end up seeing a half rate nurse practitioner who, to be honest and fair, aside from very minor ailments, would not have a clue as to how to treat you like a seasoned professional would.

OK. Let’s ask the pertinent question. Does this apply to ALL countries, where there is universal health care? And I think that’s all countries, except the USA. So you might point to Canada, for example - as having long lines and waiting periods. Someone from Canada here, can set us straight on this. But what about countries, like Switzerland or Singapore? I need statistical data, folks!

Here are some interesting articles and discussions:

• People say that universal healthcare will cause longer wait times. Is that true? What are the pros and cons of universal healthcare?

• Debunking Republican Healthcare Myths: Wait Times & Rationing

• The Truth About Waiting to See a Doctor in Canada

• Universal Healthcare Doesn’t Mean Waiting Longer to See a Doctor

[maintenanceman]

I think you underestimate the bedside manner and abilities of N.P.s and how many office visits are about ailments they know even better than do M.D.s. My own bias is that American insistence on doing it ‘the way we always have done it’ will continue to drive medical costs through the roof, despite lousy results.

You may be right. But bedside manner is not really what I am talking about Bob. My post said that I kind of think we could have a health care system that takes care of everyone’s every day ailments. The big deals may well need something else… I’m not sure just thinking out loud, but if 90 percent of the healthcare issues were taken care of by a modest tax, I have no problem with listening to the offer. But the problem is that most want to to have everyone else pay for catastrophe. We here in the US put our kids through the 12th grade. That should be well and good to give them a head start to higher education ‘that they can figure out how to pay for it’. If the 12th grade education was worth a crap…

Same with health care, got a cold, flu, some sort of virus, the universal paid healthcare system will help. Big stuff, cancer, heart transplant, etc… Will require a outside insurance policy, and that would I think really sharpen the competition.

Just a thought.

[maintenanceman]

Why shouldn’t a taxpayer funded system cover “big stuff”?

Because it is not sustainable without collapsing the whole system.Until the cost of high end treatments and high end drugs comes into some sort of realistic possibility, it is just not going to happen. I have a hard enough time paying for my own catastrophic health insurance without paying for myriads of those who can’t or decide they don’t want to pay for their own.

[Bob_Wilson]

The problem is that most want to to have everyone else pay for catastrophe.

That’s our system now. We require hospitals to treat the catastrophes of those who decide not to pay anything into insurance. And it’s the rest of we taxpayers and insurance payers who make up the difference for the uninsured who end up in catastrophic condition.

Who would you have pay for the fortunes due in such catastrophes?

[Agnostic_Gabe]

I would employ euthanasia as a standard rule. Young people get vital organs, older people do not get life saving multi million dollar treatment. They lived a life, now it is time to die. This would save a lot of money. Seems cold, but why prolong the inevitable? Way too much money is spent on trying to keep a dieing person alive. To what end? I say nationalize healthcare. If rich people don’t like being in the same pool as us lackies, then they can use their wealth to go to a private practice. Everyone wins.

[Bob_Wilson]

Gabe, There’s no question we squander a huge part of health care funds on keeping dying persons alive. We just cremated my mother who blessedly made it clear she would kill us if we did anything to prolong her life in ill health, and thankfully she went quickly.

My only question on your call to euthanize “older people” is what guidelines would determine who is liquidated, and who you would have decide such criterion? And are you recommending that the wealthy who could go to a private practice be allowed to live longer?

[Agnostic_Gabe]

We just cremated my mother who blessedly made it clear she would kill us if we did anything to prolong her life in ill health, and thankfully she went quickly.

Sorry to hear that. I wonder if your mother is related to mine… My mother says the same thing to me. It actually hurts though, because she takes it more extreme. She doesn’t believe in even going to the doctor… So if she ends up with cancer, she is not likely to fight it.

[Agnostic_Gabe]

My only question on your call to euthanize “older people” is what guidelines would determine who is liquidated, and who you would have decide such criterion? And are you recommending that the wealthy who could go to a private practice be allowed to live longer?

1. I think it should be voluntary, yet you should not be on the list for replacement organs past a certain age 80?

2. Yes, if they have the money, have at it. At least that money goes back into the economy… Unlike dying with it unspent and hoarding it like a monarch, to be passed down.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Same with health care, got a cold, flu, some sort of virus, the universal paid healthcare system will help. Big stuff, cancer, heart transplant, etc… Will require a outside insurance policy, and that would I think really sharpen the competition.

Medicare Advantage stuff is handled by outside Insurance companies. Essentially, Medicare (AKA federal government) pays the insurance company. And they manage the system and money…and tack on other benefits as well. Medicare provides a rating system, based upon customer feedback. And they have a cap, on the max out of pocket - you pay per year. It seems we can extend this US model, to a universal health care system model.

[Invernessian]

Way too much money is spent on trying to keep a dieing person alive.

I agree, in part. Allow someone who is aged die, but comfortably and not via euthanasia. But, do everything reasonably possible to help a younger person, especially a child.

[Bob_Wilson]

Gabe, it appears we are on the same page. I think our approach to extending life beyond what’s worthwhile is primitive, and we should encourage the elderly that they can voluntarily let go. At first, I thought your “I would employ euthanasia as a standard rule” meant having gov’t administer it. I do hope your mother will take good care of herself.

[Paidion]

Well… here in Canada, we enjoy socialized provincial health care. It is paid for (at least partially) through income tax, so that those with higher incomes pay more than those with lower.

The amount I pay through income tax as a retired teacher on pension is minuscule compared to what I would have had to pay without socialized health care for the surgeries and other health care from doctors and hospitals provided for my wife and me through socialized health care.

[DaveB2.0]

You have been more fortunate than other Canadians, from all that I have read.

[Invernessian]

You read propaganda? Although not perfect, the health system is pretty good up here. Not everything is totally free - in Alberta, we still pay for a portion of the costs of prescribed drugs and 100% of any un-prescribed remedies, e.g. vitamins, etc. Also, going outside the “system”, for private care, is at our own cost.

Of course, I recognize we benefit greatly by having the US take care of most of our defense needs! Thanks muchly.

[Paidion]

You have been more fortunate than other Canadians, from all that I have read.

You have probably read about the “long waiting periods.” I think those accounts are somewhat exaggerated. We did experience waiting periods, but they were not long. And in the case of emergencies, patients are given immediate attention.

[maintenanceman]

There are countries who did it while spending less per capita on healthcare than the US.

So who?

[maintenanceman]

we should encourage the elderly that they can voluntarily let go.

No, I think we may ‘allow’ the elderly that they can voluntarily let go. Big difference Bob.

[Bob_Wilson]

we should encourage the elderly that they can voluntarily let go.

No, I think we may ‘allow’ the elderly that they can voluntarily let go. Big difference Bob.

You can believe what you want. As a pastor, I often encourage those near death.