The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

" Uninformed savants across the political spectrum have pilloried President Trump for his eminently rational decision to draw down the U.S. troop commitment (initially, only 25, as it turns out!) to the Syrian morass (whose “dynamic” has remained largely unchanged since the late 1940s).

Most of the ire directed at Mr. Trump has to do with hand-wringing over our “Kurdish allies,” even after the President warned Turkey not to engage in its habitual behaviors — since Ataturk created his ethno-racst state — towards the Kurds. Regardless, here are a few salient points one should bear in mind about the Kurds which the hand-wringers conveniently ignore in their hagiographies:Kurdish predatory mass killings of Christians and Yazidis are well-characterized and went on for centuries. Grinding persecution continues to this day, as can be gleaned from detailed reports by both Assyrian and Yazidi organizations (here; here; here)"

And of course, under Saint Obama:
"As these lines are being written, some 400,000 Kurds in and around the town of Kobane in northern Syria, on the Turkish border, are being besieged and assaulted by massed legions of Islamic State killers armed with scores of tanks, armored personnel carriers, and heavy artillery. Against these, the Kurdish defenders have only AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades. The Kurds have called on the U.S. to send in air strikes to take out the jihadist forces. In response, the administration sent in two fighter jets Saturday, which destroyed two Islamic State tanks and then flew away. The Kurds are begging for arms. The administration has not only refused to send arms, but is exerting pressure both on our NATO allies and on Israel not to send any either. Over 150,000 Kurds have fled their homes to try to escape to Turkey, but they are being blocked at the border by Turkish troops. Meanwhile, Turkey is allowing Islamist reinforcements to enter Syria to join the Islamic State, while Islamist elements of the Free Syrian Army, funded and armed by the United States, have joined forces with the group in the genocidal assault on the Kurdish enclave.

According to Kurdish sources, the Turks are massing troops on their own side of the border, with the apparent plan being to sit in place and allow the Kurds to be exterminated, and then move in to take over the region once they are gone. This is the same plan as Josef Stalin used when he allowed the Nazis to wipe out the Polish underground during the Warsaw rising of 1944, and only afterward sent in the Red Army to take control of what was left of the city. If anything, it is even more morally reprehensible, since it could be pointed out in Stalin’s defense that his forces were at least pummeling the enemy elsewhere while the Warsaw fight was under way. In contrast, the Turks are doing nothing of the sort. For an American administration to collude in such a mass atrocity is infamous."

Clever partisans always produce rationalization for self-centered immorality, even when there is broad bi-partisan conviction about betraying those to whom many of our soldiers had entrusted their lives.

And none of these denigrating attempts to justify treating Kurdish children in such a dehumanizing fashion address the arguments presented above, or our future need to call upon other souls with imperfect historys to join us in fateful battles with our own enemies, without having to fear that what follows may be inviting an aerial assault on their families.

We should resist the blatant searing of our conscience.

To Dave and Bob… Do you guys think that our political wrangling here on this forum is important how?

MM That’s a good question. I doubt it is all that useful. For many years I never posted anything political on this site, and I’ve argued that it doesn’t enhance the site’s original focus upon comparing views of theology and Scripture.

Yet when I see Dave continually post passionate one-sided political pieces in the era of President Trump that I find misleading, my sense that there should be some balance on the site if we’re going to be doing politics seems to get the best of me, and I try to rise to the occasion and respond with some equality to those who exhibit the strongest sense that it’s vital that others on the forum agree with their political passions.

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Thanks

Newsflash! In prison for tax evasion(Manafort) nothing to do with Trump
Newsflash! Seeking real estate deals in Russia is not illegal except in the minds of Trump haters

So Bob, on top of everything you are a military expert too! Awesome!

Trump is fighting a mutiny by the U.S. intelligence community. If the mutineers succeed, it will be the end of the republic. If a cabal of bureaucrats nestling in the bowls [bowels] of our $80 billion a year intelligence bureaucracy can bring down an elected president of the United States, the republic is finished.

The impeachment issue is a load of baloney, period. No less a constitutional scholar than Prof. Alan Dershowitz wrote (on the website of the Gatestone Institute):

So, the question remains: did President Trump commit impeachable offenses when he spoke on the phone to the president of Ukraine and/or when he directed members of the Executive Branch to refuse to cooperate, absent a court order, with congressional Democrats who are seeking his impeachment?

The answers are plainly no and no. There is a constitutionally significant difference between a political “sin,” on the one hand, and a crime or impeachable offenses, on the other.

Even taking the worst-case scenario regarding Ukraine – a quid pro quo exchange of foreign aid for a political favor – that might be a political sin, but not a crime or impeachable offense.<<

Chad - there is no requirement that you or anyone else actually READ any of this; if it upsets you or seems pointless to you - just let it go. Seriously. Won’t bother me.
I happen to think we -this nation -are in trouble, and also that I know why and so do most other people. But it is a daily struggle to try and keep on top of it, and does not have the same level of importance nor demand the same level of attention from each person. No big deal.
Does this do any good? Nah. I feel it is important to find what the truth is - I still believe in that concept - and state it here. Wasted effort yeah probably.

Here’s that masterstroke explained. Maybe it can be trailed back to Putin?? lol.
https://amgreatness.com/2019/10/30/trumps-withdrawal-from-syria-is-a-foreign-policy-masterstroke/

President Trump’s decision to withdraw U.S. troops from Northern Syria is a brilliant strategic move that simultaneously achieves all of our major objectives in the region.

Perhaps because it has been so long since America had a coherent foreign policy strategy, the political establishment is aghast at the president’s action, predicting all manner of calamitous consequences. The same “experts,” however, have been responsible for the myriad foreign policy disasters that have befallen this country over the past two decades, so their discomfiture should be taken with a rather small grain of salt.

In one deft move that doesn’t put a single American life at risk, President Trump achieved a regional solution to ISIS, undermined Iran’s capacity for foreign aggression, and disentangled the United States from an alliance of convenience that threatened to create major diplomatic headaches down the road.

Contrary to claims that withdrawing American special forces from Northern Syria will enable ISIS to resurrect itself, for instance, the arrangement with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan merely shifts responsibility for the few remaining ISIS fighters onto Turkey.

? In the midst of my effort to focus debate with Dave on whether, with no protective warning, starkly betraying loyal allies who laid down their lives alongside us and helped us get Baghdadi, into the certainty of having their families and homes rained with bombs was moral, wise, really showed that our policy is that “no one got left behind,” or will cause distrust among those we may need to join our cause in days ahead, you want to stress that you think I don’t realize that Trump’s campaign chairman has nothing to do with Trump?!

While I wasn’t even thinking about Manafort, I agree Trump’s selection of him probably had little to do with his tax cheating regarding Ukraine. But if that kind of unimportant side issue is the best you guys can do with the substance of my case re: what we did to the Kurds, it would seem that we’ve exhausted anything pertinent in analysing the morality of that decision. My only interest was that Dave and others would engage the arguments that I actually presented.

P.S. It’s fine if you also want to ridicule my “expertise” on military involvements, with my argument that we are actually too involved in the Middle East. Your own “expertise” may disagree. As I said, I frankly think Trump’s rhetoric about that is spot on. And even though you guys ridicule it, I’ll repeat that I believe only time will tell if his move with the Kurds ends up with a good outcome.

This today from the BBC, is more interesting than reality TV shows! :crazy_face:

And what else is interesting today?

Bob, honestly i think you are overly sensitive about disagreements calling many things “ad hominem” or “ridicule” that are not meant that way. Debating military strategy here is really going into the weeds and pointless because in reality we are not akin to classified information needed and even the experts who do have this access still disagree.

Look, just based on being widely read, both Dave and I have applauded Trump’s commitment to removing us from the wars I cited. When I repeat that, you can ridicule my ignorance if you want. But I think your assumption that citizens are off base to develop or express opinions on the U.S. role overseas is patronizing.

One thing I’ve enjoyed in the Democratic debates is vigorous differences on this issue (even with many of them privy to more information than we have). I think debating such vital questions is healthy in a democracy

As a totally impartial observer, I suggest all you armchair experts - including you, Bob - simply follow that maxim.

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The right has demanded a full House vote to approve investigating Trump’s Ukraine moves, with open hearings, etc. But with many witnesses already confirming the same things, it’s hard for elected GOPers to defend Trump on the Merits or actions.

So I’d guess their instinct will remain just focusing on complaining about the Process, and trying to block as many records, and intimidate and stall as many witnesses as possible. As I watched the Watergate hearings, that tactic was also Nixon’s instinctive emphasis.

I agree. And while I mentioned doubt that creating distrust among allies and potential allies will be good for America’s future interest, my main focus on a Christian forum was whether what we did to the Kurds was moral. Even if it proves true that giving in to Erdogan and leaving the Middle East in the hands of Putin and others is in America’s own selfish interests, that moral question remains.

“Armchair experts” - used as a derogatory - sometimes there is truth in that. But equally so is to recognize the need for and ability of “smart people” (all of us here) or if not smart, at least wanting to be ‘informed’ (which has been criticized also) - to search various sources of information and try to get to the truth, not just form an opinion. Opinions are easy, truth is sometimes more difficult. Opinions can be endlessly ‘discoursed’ upon; the truth not so much. Yes, that is not a sophisticated approach, sorry about that.

“When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail” is in the current climate “When you’re on the far left, everything is Trump” - and that’s the way it appears to a non-Party person. If the subject is guns, abortion, Kurds, immigration - no matter WHAT - it’s really about Trump. I find it impossible to discuss anything when I know what I’m going to hear is used only to get to Trump, as if he is the big problem.

P.S. If you’re on the far right, then is everything a Democrat? :crazy_face:

He’s talking to Bob. Let’s dedicate a song, shall we? :crazy_face: