The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Hyper Focused On Sin

Practices Christian Living
#1

This post is sort of a question and sort of a proclamation of frustration – maybe it’s hoping to find evidence of others that are similarly puzzled or a request for a clearer picture of something I just don’t understand.

The church I attend, occasionally now because I can’t stomach more of it, has had a constant message week in and week out for years now. The message is: “We need to seriously focus everyday on our sin so we can confess it and be in right standing with god.” To this end there are small group meetings where participants are expected to pour out before the group their deepest darkest junk. The group is supposed to help with this by relentless badgering the “confessee” for every last sorted detail. We are encouraged to go for coffee with someone every week and use this as a time for serious sin confession. Every sermon no matter from what section of the bible ends up being the exact same message. So, like Jesus turning the water into wine is really all about SIN, SIN, SIN.

Now, I could just find another church but it’s not that simple. It seems the evangelical churches in my area all have this bent towards sin in some way or another. There are several Mars Hill campuses around and they are far worse than my own congregation of sinners.

Now it seems to me this is exactly opposite of the real ministry of reconciliation, where as far as I can tell from what Paul wrote, we are to spread the message that god is no longer counting our sins. I expect the true message also has an opposite effect on a person’s actual behavior.

What happens when someone is focused all day long on the things they are doing wrong and trying to muster all available will power to stop? I personally don’t think this is effective in any way shape or form. Fail – guilt – confession – worry about failing again – fail again. That’s probably how it works.

So, I guess my question is what exactly is the reason for the message that god is no longer counting sins?

The implications I see suggest there is a completely different path we should be following as “ministers”.

#2

I whole-heartedly agree that in many churches there is way too much focus on sin. I believe they’d be much better off if they’d focus more on inspiring people to love God and love people more. Jesus said, “If you love God, you’ll keep the commandments.” For many years I understood this as keeping the commandments being proof that one loves God, but I’ve come to understand that keeping the commandments flows out of loving God! And the person who is forgiven most, loves most!

Also, sin flows out of brokeness, woundedness, sickness of the soul. If we focus on the sin then we are focusing on the fruit, not the root. One can pick up and throw away fruit all day, but until one deals with the root issue, the fruit just keeps coming. If we deal with the root issues though, the fruit dries up and fades away. And what heals the brokeness of our soul? Grace, Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Acceptance, Affirmation, Relationship! These are the things that heal our souls!

Yes, we need to warn people about the devestation that sin brings; Jesus certainly did. But such a warning always needs to be firmly couched in the love of God for us.

Concerning confession, such is a means of grace. Note what James says, 5: “13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

Yes, confession and prayer is a powerful means of grace, but only in the context of existing loving relationships. And note the connection between confession and healing. Usually the sin that is being confessed is something that is very serious, something that’s eating at you, killing you - not occasional misteps but twisted patterns of life that’s killing you.

If we focus on inspiring people to love God and others, then sin will not be a big issue.

#3

Wise words, Sherman, thanks for that!

#4

Hi Davidbo, I am absolutely agreeing here with Sherman. I would also like to add not to forget that as a Christian, you also have the Holy Spirit within you. Yes, you are still in a sin afflicted body and in a sinful world, so you will make mistakes. I sure do. But God the Father has forgiven all thru Jesus and we are in the New Covenant. As long as you are not deliberately plotting and planning to go out and do major badness, I don’t think you have much to worry about.

And I agree with you, unfortunately you are right in that a lot of the more fundamentalist evangelical churches seem to focus too much on sin, its like they don’t think any of their members are saved. Do they think you have to get resaved every week or something? :open_mouth: (I am assuming your church is not CEU). Too many of them also preach, for all practical purposes that Jesus is a Republican. (Here in the US)

I came to know Jesus thru an Assemblies of God church, then was away from active faith as I wrestled with the idea of Hell unti I found CU. Now I am attending a mainline Church, at least for now. I miss the informality and participation in the Holy Spirit of the AoG but I am enjoying sermons that focus on things Christians can do to help people and increase their individual faith. You might want to try this. Most mainline churches have websites with their Declaration of Belief on them so you can avoid ones who empasize hell.

#5

Thanks everyone for the responses. They are all good and I appreciate your wisdom.

However, I realize now that maybe I could pose the question in a better way. So let me try again.

Straight to the point: How do we make this appeal that Paul is writing about?

It seems the central message of the appeal is that God is no longer counting sins. I’ sure there is a ton of unpacking to do regarding the meaning of this. But, let suppose you have a neighbor, maybe somewhat unsavory to boot, and you have the opportunity to make an appeal to him (or her) as the very ambassador of Christ. What is the appeal?

Now I used to be in a leadership position in an evangelical church and this very question was raised. I’m no longer in a leadership position because my description of the “appeal” was deemed to be “not evangelical” at all. Basically, I started off my appeal by telling the “imaginary” man that God was holding nothing against him, nothing, he was free and clear now and forevermore, and God loved Him unconditionally.

That’s about as far as I got before the fur began flying. The first and loudest reaction was: “You can’t tell people that because they will just keep on sinning!”

Second question: Is there something inherent in the message that God is no longer counting sins, that actually may cause a person to no longer want to “sin”? Maybe this concept is way more powerful than we expect.

Third question: Is focusing on sin and the supposed wrathful consequences, both for salvation and daily living (if there’s a difference), the exact opposite of the appeal Christ would have us make on His behalf?

#6

Hi Davidbo: So now I think what you are asking is how to witness as a Christian Evangelical Universalist??? A non CEU church will not like this type of witness as (based on my experience in the AoG) their first step is usually to convince a person they are a sinner and doomed to Hell (ECT) unless they accept Jesus as their personal Savior, pray the Sinners Prayer and start going to a church, preferably theirs. So they are back to the emphasis on Sin again.

That’s probably why they didn’t like your response, you were focussed on God’s Grace instead of sin. And not a drop of fear in site either in your response.

I am new at this CEU business-----I have not had many witnessing opportunities and the ones I have had were with atheists/agnostics which is a bit of a different starting point. I think I’m starting a thread on Witnessing as a CEU.

And, I think regarding your Biblical passage, God is no longer counting sins because of Jesus sacrificing himself and the New Covenant and the Resurection—which maybe a place to start. Telling people why God is no longer counting sins.

#7

Hi Davidbo,
I don’t have a quick or easy answer to your questions, but I think part of the answer involves turning our focus away from individuals to the bigger picture. When we look at Jesus, we see exactly what God is like and what we don’t see is someone who is in the miserable business of counting sins against people. What we do see is that God in Christ is concerned with reconciling THE WORLD to himself, not just a number of individuals out of the world, the ones who are perfect or who have been smart or fortunate enough to make correct religious choices.
The message of reconciliation which God has entrusted to us is a matter of seeing what God is doing in the world and joining in with it, living and loving with kingdom values and perspective, ‘as we work together with him’ (2 Cor 6.1).
Drew

#8

Hi David,

I think it was on two occasions that God said that He was well pleased with His Son. Instead of focusing on sin, estrangement from God, should we not focus on pleasing God?

Blessings

Michael in Barcelona

#9

All the things people have said here are great. This isn’t an easy subject because it’s most counter-intuitive. Since we’re no longer under the law, but rather under grace/favour, we should therefore no longer present our members as weapons of unrighteousness unto sin, but rather present our members as weapons of righteousness unto life. What fruit had you then (back when you were a sinner) from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end result of those things is death, but the fruit of righteousness is life age-enduring in Jesus Christ our Lord.

So on the one hand, God does not count our sins against us, but on the other hand, should we continue in sin that grace may abound? Or because we are no longer under law but under grace? May it never be!

I think one thing we may miss is the difference between SIN and SINS. We do sin; there’s no getting around it. As we grow closer to Him, we become more like Him and therefore sin less, but that is a gradual process and I don’t think any of us have reached the goal. And if we TRY to reach the goal, instead of concentrating on Jesus, well then we fail. Yet we are absolutely not, God forbid!, to continue in slavery to sin.

As far as I can tell at the moment, the good news is that we are free from the SIN principle. We were enslaved to sin, but we’ve died to sin and are now the servants of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life age-abiding. So long as we struggle to obey the law, we will commit sins and we will be the slaves of sin. We can’t do this in our own effort, but rather by the grace and favour of God. Nonetheless, we do have to cooperate in rejecting sin. (Don’t present/Do present your bodies . . .)

But you’re right. All this hyperfocus on sins is probably counter-productive. Granted if you have a particular weak spot (and who among us doesn’t?), it may help to be accountable to a few trusted brothers or sisters. As Drew pointed out, this is scriptural. We need one another. Still, anything can be carried to extremes. The focus should be Jesus; not sin or sins.

#10

Cindy, I was waiting for someone to counteract this foolishness! And you were the one. Read any of the OT prophets. They prophesied that Yahweh was going to wipe out the sinning Israelites. Check out the major portions of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or almost any of the others.

Jesus died in order to provide us with the means to overcome sin. He didn’t die to cover our sin so that when the Father looks on us He doesn’t see our sin but Christ’s righteousness. This is the Fundamentalist fallacy! Look at ANY scripture which states the reason for Christ’s death. You won’t find this fallacy. Rather you find these reasons:

*I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed [healed of your sin sickness].

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
*

How can we “focus on God” and overlook our own sin, expecting his blessing?

And how can we please God if we continue in sin? Yes, He was well pleased with His Son. Would He have been pleased if His Son had been a sinner?

Trusting in Christ’ sacrifice to cover you is insufficient if you continue in sin. Indeed, if you don’t deal with your sinning (by His grace) you can’t please God at all, though you worship Him, shout His praises, dance before Him, and pray fervent prayers. The Israelites thought they could please Him with sacrifices and offerings, keeping the sabbath, and participating in solemn assembly. But this is what Yahweh had to say about that:

What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says Yahweh; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats. When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you spread forth your hands [in prayer], I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, let us reason together, says Yahweh: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken." (Isaiah 1:11-20)

Paul also wrote about the all-importance of our well-doing and the danger to those who live the self-seeking life. He says that lasting life is the consequence of good works, and that affliction and anguish will be the consequence of those who do evil.

*For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)*

It is true that God does not count our sins against us … but only when we repent of them (have a change of heart and mind concerning them), turn from them, and begin to work righteousness.

#11

Wow, those are strong words. Paidion, I think what you have written misses and mischaracterizes the point of my question, but I would never call your reasoning “foolishness”.

Yes, I completely agree that Jesus death provides us with the means to overcome sin.

My question is: Is the knowledge that God is no longer counting sins the very (and possibly the only) key to a person actually turning from sin to life in Christ?

What you write above is the message I hear all the time in church. It’s the mindset that fear of wrath is the most effective way to get a person to repent.

Is Paul in 2 Cor 5 not saying that the complete opposite message, that God has already forgiven us, is what leads a person out of the garbage pit and into life?

#12

Yes.

#13

Dear Paidon,

You ask (in response to my post):
“and how can we please God if we continue in sin? Yes, He was well pleased with His Son. Would He have been pleased if His Son had been a sinner?”

On your first question I think you misread me. What I am trying to suggest is focus to be more on trying to be pleasing to God than to be so focused on sin as in the case described by Davidbo. .

Please, I did not say that we can please God if we continue in sin!

I do believe in repentance and God’s mercy and love and in the Holy Spirit urging us on to follow Christ, and that is what we should focus on.

And I do believe God wishes us to respond to His love and that Christ showed us in His life multiple ways of how to please His Father.

Despite God’s love for each of us, as sinners there is no way that God is going to be pleased with us all the time. But surely we can at least try to focus as much on how to please God as we must also focus on recognition and repentance of our sins.

As sinners we will always fall far short in our efforts. However as we celebrate All Saints, we have plenty of good examples of men and women to inspire us to make a better effort.

All clear?! I learn a huge amount from your posts, which I respect greatly. I am still on a learning curve despite my 75 years but I can assure you there was no need to have asked me your second question! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Blessings!

Michael in Barcelona