The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I almost cried during Bible study today

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hi,

Well, my well-intentioned Bible-study partner and I were studying the End Times and we are getting to the part where the thousand-year reign of Jesus is ending, which means that the 2nd death is coming.

She gave me some sheets of paper stapled together that had all the verses in it supporting the annihilationist view. I started getting tears in my eyes because the concept is just too much for me to handle. She could tell I was having a hard time with it, and I simply said how hard this is for me to deal with because these unbelievers being destroyed could be my parents.

As well meaning as she is, the platitude about how God is just (which is what she said), makes me cringe. She said she looked at the universalist site I showed her (God’s Plan For All) and she said that she looked at it but (according to her) saw a lot of inconsistencies and verses that the universalists isolated out of context to support their position, etc. The problem is that I am no match for this woman at the Bible study, she knows how to point out verse after verse and tie it in with another verse of the Bible, just with the snap of a finger, it seems. I don’t know what to say. I’m not planning to debate her on this, just to learn her POV but as far as trying to get through to her, that seems futile. She firmly believes that people’s choices about whether or not they want to be saved, are what drives them either to go to heaven or be destroyed, and that God “has to accept these choices.” I don’t think God has no choice about this. He’s not helpless to stop this. This whole thing makes it look like human will overrides God’s will.

The whole thing just got to me. Sometimes the arguments for annihilation do look strong, but I also want to see the arguments for universalism too. I don’t want this to be over. I have Julie Ferwerda’s Raising Hell in a PDF format and I’m going to browse through it. It looks interesting. I won’t use it to debate with my friend, but at least I can read something for my own personal satisfaction.

#2

can you post which verses universalists omitted?

you yourself don’t want your parents to be destroy, and notice that this thinking is from God,

#3

Ouch! OUCH!! Man! I can hardly believe she said such a thing to you. Most people would at least offer a platitude like, “We don’t know what happens in a person’s last moments” or “We just have to keep praying for your parents; while there’s life there’s hope” but to just come out and say that is amazing. If I were your mom, I’d tell you to maybe lay off the bible study with this lady for a while.

Here’s a method for bible study that I discovered fairly recently that’s been a huge help for me: journeyintotheson.com/2012/0 … ble-study/ It’s great to study with a sister, but if the sister doesn’t come to the study with a humble attitude to learn from the word, then maybe you’re not quite ready to study with her. Hear from God first; you don’t need any human to teach you (according to John, anyway). The Holy Spirit is your teacher, and God’s word is the text (along with the things the Spirit speaks to your heart).

FYI, enjoy Julie’s book; she has a lot of useful things to say. I don’t want you to be upset by it though, so I’ll warn you that she also teaches some kind of unorthodox things (aside from UR) that I at least can’t agree with. Her views on other subjects do represent some Christian universalists, but they don’t represent a majority of CUs. If you decide to agree with her on those things, I will think you’re mistaken :wink: but none of us will think you’re going to “hell” on account of it.

Blessings, Cindy

#4

Ask this lady how, precisely, it is just to annihilate a being who had never seen the essence of God? And ask her, moreover, why God would want to. Get her to explain her philosophy of justice and notion of Gods character, and just keep asking her why she thinks the way she does, at each of her responses. Sometimes letting her talk more is better than trying to answer her back.

#5

G’day Lady Bug… as I see it ‘the annihilationist view’ is even more bereft of sense and sensibility than its lame partner in crime ‘eternal conscious torment’. I have some brief thoughts on this right HERE that may be of interest to you.

#6

Hi Lady Bug
Sorry you’re having such a hard time with your Annihilationist friend.
I think when we’re really anxious to come up with a persuasive answer we can make a mess of it (at least I do) I’m becoming much more patient these days and as Cindy suggested keep putting it back on them to justify there position.
I was an Annihilationist so am pretty familiar with the angle - not sure which denominational flavour your friend is; if it happens to be SDA I can probably suggest a few counter positions - a lot of Anni. stuff usu. comes from Revelation of course. It would be interesting if you could post up some of the ‘persuasive Anni. verses’ for us to look at.
Of course it’s easy to get into Bible Ping-Pong which isn’t always very productive.
Cheers S

#7

Sympathies, ladybug. I wonder how that person would have reacted if you’d demonstrated that ECT was ‘true’ and they had dead unsaved relatives? :frowning:

ECT is convincing, so I was ECT for some time.
Annihilationism was stronger, so I was anno for some time.
Universalism seems to be the strongest position of them all, so I hope I don’t change any more :slight_smile:

Smart people can make the bible say anything they want in a convincing manner (unfortunately), so no one should be dogmatic about any bible based doctrine. But I’m not sure that even really smart people can make goodness and love mean their opposite, which is pretty much what annihilationism and ECT do.

#8

My suggestion is to learn to agree to disagree. I think there are plenty of bits of the Bible and plenty of other topics that can be discussed without getting into this area. It can be very difficult, knowing friends disagree with you. I still have friends who don’t know my stance…and one in particular only found out when i accidently forwarded him an email that had some conversation at the bottom with someone else where i’d talked about Universalism. That wasn’t so good…but thankfully we’ve agreed to disagree and can mostly get past/around that now.

It may be useful to find someone else to have Bible study with, as you’re feeling particularly vulnerable on this issue. I basically abandoned a church i was involved in because they increasingly got into topics i personally found traumatic. It wasn’t a nice time, and i wish i’d found my current church sooner, as i was basically without a real home church for a while. I also to this day find it hard to read the Bible in the way i used to…despite being mostly subconsciously convinced about UR before i knew it was an option due to my readings all through my childhood (i read the whole thing several times in my youth, skipping some of the genealogies, and so i doubt i was taking things out of context :stuck_out_tongue: )…i still fear i’ll pick it up and get judged or condemned lol. So i share some of your anxieties.

As for UR taking verses out of context…well that’s a common charge against a view you don’t agree with lol. Personally, i think in context, UR makes the most sense…that Scripture doesn’t teach fiery pagan hell…not when you dig a tiny bit…and when thing are properly put into context, a lot of scary teachings from the church lose their foundation and become revealed as obvious charlatonism used to control people…and God (after that digging) turns out to be Love and Light and Life…wondrous and beautiful, kind and wise, merciful and forgiving, self-sacrificing and creative, and victorious even over our best efforts to rebel. who can fight that kind of love forever? i couldn’t…and i do try from time to time.

#9

I’ve been setting up to work on commenting on Edward Fudge’s recently released 3rd edition of The Fire That Consumes – I had the honor to meet him last year, too, at the three-way debate between him, Tom Talbott and Jerry Walls (for ECT). They’re all great guys. :sunglasses:

It takes time to train in Biblical detail, Lady – your friend didn’t just get there overnight herself, and she apparently doesn’t understand how much she’s threatening your hope.

However, there is one fairly easy logical point on which you shouldn’t let anyone bully you concerning human free will – and I’m saying this as someone who agrees with her on the importance of human free will in regard to punishment from God:

God’s respect for human free will CANNOT LOGICALLY be used as an explanation for Him even allowing a human to destroy their own free will, much less God actively inflicting such a loss.

That’s especially true since our free will doesn’t exist independently of God. We have free will insofar as God chooses for us to have it (paradoxical though that’s going to sound). We cannot make God destroy our free will, and we cannot finally destroy it ourselves apart from His agreement to authoritatively allow us to do so.

So if someone says God destroys human free will because of how important He regards free will, that’s nonsense; and if someone says God allows humans to finally destroy their free will because of how important He regards free will, that’s also pure nonsense. You may not be able to answer their years of Bible training yet, but you don’t have to accept nonsense explanations they give you. (To be fair their nonsense explanations on one point don’t necessarily mean they’re wrong where you cannot yet check them in other regards. But to be fair, you’re allowed to suspect it. :wink: )

And if someone tries to get around that nonsense by allowing that of course the importance of free will to God cannot be the reason why God authoritatively destroys free will, so He just must not be powerful or smart enough to stop that destruction (which was my teacher Lewis’ eventual way of trying to get around that) – then they’ve switched over, by accident, to talking about some kind of lesser god who exists within Nature and so who can be occasionally defeated outright by the power of sin.

Which ought to panic them in various ways, not you. :slight_smile:

#10

Good morning sis,

I pray that God will give you wisdom and understanding, and even more so that He’ll comfort your heart with His presence and peace. I think I’d probably not study Revelation with her. When someone is steeped in a specific futuristic interpretation of Revelation then it’s challenging to discuss Revelation with them because it is hard, almost impossible, for them to see it differently than how they’ve been taught to see it.

Revelation is a powerful book because of its style of literature. It is apocalyptic literature, a series of graphic fantasy movie clips, like clips from “Lord of the Rings” or “The Chronicles of Narnia”. It is not meant to be interpreted literally or systematically, but is meant to inspire and encourage. For the first century Jew it was meant to encourage them that the Kingdom of God would prevail and the beast (whatever organized system was persecuting them, Jewish synagogue or Roman govenor) would ultimately be overcome and God would make things right.

It serves to encourage people throughout history that no matter what system they face, the church, the kingdom of God will overcome. And personally it can speak to us that no matter what internal “demons” we face, we can overcome and the kingdom of God will be established in us. And I trust that it speaks futuristically also, but of all the different ways of viewing Revelation, this, to me, is the least solid, the most open to various wild interpretations.

So hang in there. Maybe study Romans together, if you really want to study with this woman. It’s Paul’s gospel and would be an awesome study, especially if one is open to believe Paul really means all when he writes all.

#11

Hello Lady,

Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and that word “lost” is also the word “destroyed.” Even if we destroy ourselves, Jesus is able to seek us out and find us.

Hang in there! If you really feel compelled to continue this study, I’m sure you will learn and grow through the experience.

If you would like to post some of those verses she gave you, we can comment on our perspective on those, and why we believe we are not taking them out of context. :sunglasses:

Sonia

#12

Hi Guys, thank you for your responses. When I find the sheet that has those verses that support annihilation, I’ll give them to you. I’d like to see what you think of them. Not sure if I should put it in a separate thread or just leave them here.

#13

Hi Lady Bug,

If “all” I focused on was the passages that speak of the punishment/penalty of sin and judgment, I’d likely believe in annihilationism. When I study the passages that affirm UR though, it gives me a different perspective of the penalty of sin passages, helping me to see them as speaking of the annihilation of evil, evil within and without, personal as well as systemic evil.

And when I consider the character of God as revealed in scripture and the person of Jesus, annihilation seems to not fit because God loves all more than we do and created all for relationship with Him. So if He created us for relationship with Him and someone is annihilated then his purpose is thwarted. And if Jesus came to save the world, to draw all to himself then He fails if all are not drawn.

I encourage you to meditate, study upon the UR passages like Rom. 5:18-19, Col. 1:20, Rom. 11:32, etc.

Blessings,
Sherman

#14

There are a lot of Bible verses on that sheet that pertain to the annihilation of the wicked, so I’m trying to sort out the “best” ones. I’ll get back to you when I can. I didn’t realize how uncomfortable this all makes me til I took a 2nd look at all those quotes :open_mouth:

#15

Most of the time lady bug those references to the wicked are referring to God’s people. The bible wasn’t written for non believers, but as an instruction for believers. :mrgreen:

#16

A new thread would be more useful, I think, since you could title it for the topic and so ask for replies from members pro or con. :slight_smile: