The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I think I'm on my way back out of Christianity

Once again, I’ve hit a wall. Heaps of guilt and self-hate come down on me every time I give Christianity another go. Decades now of this. A “free gift” shouldn’t be so difficult to grasp.

So I’ll go back to atheistic nihilism, get the life sucked out of me, and gradually over the next year or so make my way back to Christianity, via psychology, Stoicism, Eastern philosophy, New Age, liberal Christianity; then God will be at my door with his stained undershirt promising me “it won’t happen again, baby”.

Why can’t I get this to work?

Since you ask…

i don’t think you have yet grasped that there is nothing for you to do.

All you must do now is BELIEVE.

believe that Christ has done everything for you and in your stead.

you have been reconciled to God.

God will fix everything in due time.

He will wipe away every tear.
He will make all things new.

I think your problem is HOPELESSNESS…

which means you are not YET believing…

it is a messed up world we live in.

our own individual lives are broken and messed up

WORDS are not the solution to suffering, sin, and misery.

The universal redemption accomplished in Christ is the solution.

It has not yet been applied to every inch of the cosmos and every creature in it
but one day it will.

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. romNS 15:13

I will pray for you

It might be impossible to sum up what exactly it is that has caused you to feel this way, but do you give up on Christianity or the system ? Is it humanity that is causing the hopelessness or is it an expectation that you feel you have failed ?

Whatever may be the cause, God holds nothing against us , and if God is for us, we have nothing to fear…

What Jcarlos said

I think we want to do something to make it right but we just can’t. Brother I feel where you’re at. My best advice is submit yourself to Christ (thats really all we can do). I mean let him have every bit of you. Abraham was the father of faith. God told him to go, he didn’t’ tell him where, just go. The more we submit the more He is revealed to us, and that is what I believe you (and we all) need. We need His life, more of Him.

I hope this isn’t trite, and I am praying for you.

At last something I’m qualified to talk about :slight_smile:

I haven’t posted much here recently but this strikes a chord. Andre, I completely recognise your experiences and have great sympathy for the struggle you are having. I suspect people like us share a lot of the frustrations and insecurities about the ‘Christian experience’ with others on this board but who for many reasons are less inclined to rail against it as we are.

I’m fortunate enough to live in the UK where religious conviction is still considered very much a private affair (though I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren who are very like the most conservative of Bible literalists in the USA) and so am not surrounded by ‘aggressive’ reactions by others of faith to my doubts and failures to live up to their yardstick of what a Christian should be

My experiences mirror yours in that I have vacillated between atheism and Christianity many times in my 53 years (notice I only try Christianity and not any other religion - the power of the system into which one is born is far greater than many Christians realise). Part of my problem (I don’t know about you) is that I have never felt any presence of God or felt any difference in my life during periods of confessing Christianity. Like you as soon as I make any confession of faith I instantly start to feel more and more that it isn’t real. The Emporer’s New Clothes start to fade into nakedness almost at once.

My current position is that I am agnostic as to the existence of a deity of any kind (not having the mental skills necessary to fully appraise the best arguments for and against - by which I mean that the best pro-deity arguments convince me when I hear them as do the best anti-deity arguments :wink: and so in some (probably vague and very woolly non-true-christian) way I no longer ‘try’ periodically to ‘be a christian’ my approach is one of sceptical doubt - but if any deity IS in charge I trust it’s the God of the Universalists (Biblically I think they are right moreso than other views) - a kind of diluted Pascal’s Wager if you will.

This lays me open to charges of wishful thinking and wanting to continue in sin (for my own selfish pleasures) - having my cake and eating it - but then Jesus was constantly annoying the ‘in crowd’ with tales of unfairly high wages for unequal work and pesky sinners entering the Kingdom before those lovely whitewashed religious folks. These accusations may well be true - but I can only face my theological positions honestly (any God worth his salt wouldn’t want it any other way). The strain and stress of attending a church/chapel when one feels torn apart by unbelief can be intolerable and I won’t do it ever again.

So - I have no answers for you, just the support of a kindred spirit as you wrestle with these problems - To thine own self be true - as someone once said.

Hi Andre
I wish you well my friend. I am not surprised that you are thinking of ‘backing off’. I have been reading your posts and from the very start, when you posted in “George Mac vs Grace” thread, I was dismayed by some of the ‘advice’/judgement you got from fellow travelers here.
One or two, felt your pain and responded in love. But others (and I suggest they re-read what they have posted) clearly blame you for your melancholic disposition. Their message seems to be “the reason that you are not full of the joy of the Lord (as I am) is because you are a bigger sinner than me”. If anyone doubts that this message permeates certain person’s posts, I will be happy to quote them but for the sake of not embarrassing such folk, at present, I refrain.
It seems that for some, it is impossible for them to believe that God may have made us all different. Some born to exude joy in all circumstances and others born to struggle in doubt and pain throughout their lives. For each, perhaps (if there is a god) they have different roles to play, different paths to walk, different preparations for different future roles but FOR GOD’S SAKE lets not judge one as a bigger sinner than another.
Soren Kiekergaard struggled his entire life and yet he has given hope to millions.
Even on this thread I can see that sound, well-meaning folk with kind hearts ask too much:
e.g.

-as if ‘believing’ is a simple choice (and yes, I too once believed that it was, but a genuine conviction rather than a pretense is something we cannot simply choose to make).

And so, I would say, love all these folk who are trying to help, whether judgmental or forgiving, -they can only give what they have received.
So, listen to Jeff, and in the hope that I am not insulting him or you I will only say:
Feel free to embrace atheistic nihilism or whatever is in your heart. Be true to yourself and do not allow any soul to judge you for in your honesty you will be more a ‘disciple of Christ’ than myself or many here.

God bless you or Good Luck, whichever you prefer. You have been refreshingly honest and I admire you for it.

Jeff is a good guy to talk with, Rob. :slight_smile:

I’m not such a good guy to talk with. But like Jeff (more or less) for me it comes down to what I believe fits the most evidence most validly. I don’t recommend anyone believe Christianity unless they come to see it is true, and I don’t recommend anyone believe some variation of Christianity unless they come to see it is true. It’s better to be agnostic about these things if one cannot figure out between options (although I do recommend a positive agnosticism that looks for appreciation in various beliefs and would go with a belief if perceived to be true, rather than a negative agnosticism that actively denies truth claims), and I’d even say it’s better to believe some other religion or to be an atheist (of one or another variety) insofar as someone can see that it is true!

(I see Pilgrim advised much the same thing while I was composing. I’m glad we can agree on some things occasionally. :slight_smile: )

Now, having said that: I know from your other posts that it isn’t only “Christianity” that piles on the guilt and self-hate: you already have that anyway, and you’re looking for some way out of it. You do things you yourself believe to be wrong, and you can’t seem to stop doing them.

I assume you aren’t satisfied with logics of absolute moral relativism (and also not with logics of atheism), or you’d stick with an amoral variety of atheism (or a moral variety of it), or an amoral pantheism, or maybe even deism (a supernaturalistic theism where God has little to no interest in human nature so to speak, aside from designing us in some way to some extent, and so also isn’t interested in our morality or lack thereof).

But there must be something about Christianity per se that attracts you, or you’d stay with another kind of moral theism.

Based on your past posts, you seem to understand that Christianity talks about a God Who is willing to go the farthest extreme in sympathizing with sinners while still being moral Himself: the Christian “grace” is just deeper than the grace offered by any other idea of God on the market. Because there just isn’t any other idea on the market where God Most High Himself sacrifices Himself (and no one less or other than Himself) to save His own enemies.

But then comes the other logical consequence: God couldn’t be moral Himself and not expect you to grow to become moral, too. He can and will heal everything that needs healing sooner or later (often post-mortem), and won’t hold that against you. And relatedly, He’ll excuse everything that can be excused, and won’t hold those against you. Because He is good and just and moral and loving, and those are obviously loving and just (fair) things to do.

And He’ll forgive what you do wrong; and you don’t have to earn His forgiveness; and you don’t have to get someone else to earn God’s forgiveness for you.

But you do have to cooperate with His forgiveness, for His forgiveness to be fulfilled, because forgiveness isn’t the same as simply excusing you where you couldn’t help doing things. Forgiveness needs repentance, not for forgiveness to be offered, but to be fulfilled. Forgiveness is the reconciliation of an intentionally broken personal relationship: the one sinned against can reach out in forgiveness forever and ever and ever, to the one who has abused the victim of sin the most (the one the farthest away from the victim of sin), but for the reconciliation to even start being completed the sinner has to reach back away from the sin to the one who was sinned against.

By which I mean you have the analogy backward: if any moral theism is true, but especially if orthodox Christianity is true, then God, as well as other people, is the victim of our sins. We’re the ones abusing the grace of our spouse and then showing back up every once in a while with the stained undershirt at the foot of the cross, or at the door of the tomb if you prefer, promising this time it won’t happen again.

The difference of course is that God, unlike other victims of our sins whom we abuse by our sins, isn’t less powerful than we are. And if that’s scary, then we should damned well be scared! Being sacred of having abused someone vastly more powerful than we are is better than imagining ourselves to be the abused victim when He insists we stop our abuse of Himself and of other people.

(I do have some sympathy with the abused victim analogy when it comes to us being kicked around by Nature and morally abused by other people under God’s authoritative allowance for them to do so. But then, He allows us to do that to other people, too, insofar as we can. I have less than no sympathy with the abused victim analogy when the topic is our sins, unless we’re talking about other people, up to and including God Most High, being abused by us.)

God is pleased with us even when we stumble and totter, so long as we’re stumbling and tottering and crawling toward the light (instead of toward the darkness) so to speak: we don’t have to earn the light, and the light comes to us to empower us and show us the way to go.

But neither will God be satisfied (as MacDonald puts it) until we have a fully healthy walk and run. Because He loves us. (I expect He’ll only be satisfied in fact so long as we continue to grow ever stronger in our walking and running and flying, because He loves us.)

That’s difficult, and moreso for some people than for others, usually due to factors beyond our control–which God takes into account. As MacD’s disciple Lewis used to say, God doesn’t judge us as though we have no difficulties.

If your problem is that it’s difficult, I can sympathize with that–even though I cannot sympathize with the notion that because God insists we stop abusing Him and other people, and will never stop insisting, and will sooner or later upgrade His insistences in various ways increasingly inconvenient to us, therefore we’re the ones being abused by God.

But difficult isn’t hopeless. God offers us what may be compared to an operation and post-op physical therapy–in fact He insists on leading us to the operation (which NT authors compare to circumcision of the heart!–not an analogy to take lightly!) and then insists on the post-op physical therapy. He graciously provides all that for us, and graciously continues to lead us to it even when we haven’t accepted it yet, or even when we’ve accepted it and yet still sporadically reject it.

The real bother comes when He graciously keeps on persisting at us being healthy, though; including that we should do our exercises to grow stronger and more coordinated (by physical analogy). Anyone who has had the good fortune (not me, fortunately! :laughing:) of going through post-op physical therapy should have a good idea of what I mean when I say it’s a real bother!

It could seem completely oppressive if someone kept insisting on it instead of finally leaving us alone to be weak and crippled and unhealthy forever and being content to love us only as we are–also thereby being content with only being the continual victim of our sin–instead of loving us enough to insist on our becoming better than we currently are.

But (as Lewis used to say, definitely following MacD on this) then we’re asking for less love, not for more love from God.

Anyway, here’s the thing. I can sympathize with growing more moral and more successively moral being difficult. It’s difficult for everyone to some extent: even saintly people, in this life, tend to be very self-critical about remaining ethical problems in their lives, which we would disregard as being too small to even matter. That’s because they have grown to care so much about other people (both God and man) that they don’t want to be even a little unjust or unloving toward them.

But what’s more important (and I mean more objectively, logically important, not merely more important to me personally, although that, too) is whether a worldview is true, not whether it happens to be convenient or inconvenient to me. Whatever reality really is, is going to keep affecting me in various ways so long as ‘I’ exist, whether I agree with whatever reality really is or not.

If reality turns out to be utterly gracious to me, despite my ethical failures (and even despite any insistences of mine on ethically failing), great!–that’s amazingly good news! And also it happens to be very convenient to me!

If being utterly gracious to me turns out to involve hounding me to also become gracious and righteous myself, and never resting content with me remaining even a little unjust and unloving–great!–that’s also amazingly good news! Especially considering this means I’ve been abusing the grace of reality! Even though it may be very inconvenient to me currently, to stop abusing reality.

God isn’t going to give up on getting the thorn out of me, and on getting me out of the thorns. Even if I currently feel safer in the middle of the thorns (even if in some ways I currently am safer in the middle of the thorns), and even if pulling a thorn out of me hurts a lot more immediately than leaving it in. But He sure isn’t going to give up on getting me to stop going out to war against Him with thorns and thistles, and stabbing Him with them, and cramming them on His head.

But not even counting the actual thrust of our injustice against other people (up to and including against God): I know it hurts terribly to be woken from nearly freezing to death, no matter how gently the savior works. It’s a lot more comfortable to curl up (apparently) warmly–and just freeze to death.

But then I would be asking for less love from the savior, not for more.

Hi. I can identify with your post. When I found UR it was a beautiful thing. I didn’t HAVE to believe in that horrible, soul murdering doctrine of Hell. I was set free of something diabolical instantly. But, it was a two-edged sword. When I saw UR I simultaneously saw that there were interpretations of the Bible other than mine…and other than UR. I thought that for anyone to make an arbitrary decision as to which one to believe was the height of arrogance. I thought it must be more than an intellectual exercise, it must be REVEALED as well. So, I PRAYED. And prayed. And prayed and prayed and prayed.

Nothing.

Nothing but nothing.

No revelation.

No “Presence.”

No voice.

Just nothing.

Just a throbbing, empty, painful void inside of me.

The mystics say this IS God’s work. He takes the shape of Nothing because to our minds He can never be known. The Dark Night of the Soul is the putting away of all we thought we knew about God. Our THOUGHTS, CONCEPTIONS, BELIEFS. He is NONE of those things and only when we see that can we possibly see Him.

“After the descent of the veil, I looked inward to encounter not the usual, obscure presence of God, but a gaping black hole where He had been and on seeing this there arose from this center a pain so terrible, so enormous, that I wondered if it could be contained.”

“I cannot endure!”

“Eventually, I learned that the best protection against the pain was to FULLY ACCEPT it. And that by virtually sinking into it, sinking into the feeling of my UTTER MISERY AND NOTHINGNESS, the pain lost much of it’s punch.”

“Then, from out of this nothingness, this ash-heap of misery, there gradually emerged a whole new life.”

~Bernadette Roberts

You aren’t alone Brother. There are people who have run away to escape the pain and those who have endured and given word back that there is hope.

You might as well hold the line because you aren’t escaping the pain but temporarily.

Heh. I needed to hear this myself brother. :laughing:

Bless you,

Sass

Don’t beat yourself up about this Andre. I know where you are coming from. I have been there and still struggle with it. Not a day goes by that I don’t have doubts about what this is all about and if there is a God where is he. I have in the last couple of years begun to see that in some sense God doesn’t even exist yet from our perspective and perception is in a real sense reality. Some believe in God–and the God concept is an empty suitcase that can be filled with all sorts of things by the person carrying it–others are unable to believe or have a belief system or worldview that doesn’t require a theistic personal god.

For the Hebrews and Jesus God was not simply some sort of transcendent Other out of sight and beyond comprehension; or for that matter God as a private, subjective mystical presence that only a select few claim to have experienced. God was always something coming, something more than what he was in the past, beyond the far horizon (olam,olam) of the world as it is and what we can perceive. But not forever beyond this world but coming, rushing into this cosmos of messy decaying matter, exploding stars, black holes and living creatures struggling to stay alive but all eventually dying and passing away into the oblivion of extinction.

I did a search on your posts to get a better feel of who you are and where you’re coming from.
How did I miss your Jack Miles thread?!? Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God is the sequel to God: A Biography which is a really fascinating take on YHWH. He approaches it as a literary story, instead of sacred scripture with a dogmatic agenda, with YHWH being the protagonist of the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) and it is a refreshing breath of fresh air that breaks through a lot of the dusty, obscuring layers of Christian dogma. The Christ book is equally illuminating. He is simply reading what is there, and by the way, he is an expert in ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek so he does not have to rely on problematic translations with an agenda, and is able to see the Gospel accounts for what they actually are. For example, Jesus insisting to be baptized by John, which is a baptism for repentant sinners. When he mentioned this in a booktv broadcast several years ago it was like a thousands flash bulbs going off at once. Of course that is what is happening and no wonder John balked at the thought of baptizing Jesus. YHWH was indeed doing a very new thing. Jake Miles points out the glaringly obvious: that YHWH is, as Jesus, repenting of his prior modus operandi displayed in the Tanakh. He was going to fullfill his promises/responsibility to the creation in a startling new way that will transform everything, even Himself. This does not at all fit the theistic model of God and because of this there is compelling evidence that there is actually a real God after all.

The point is, God takes full responsibility for his creation from beginning to end. Sovereignty is a lofty term for the theistic, king of the universe god, but the" responsibility of God" is the Crucified God doing whatever it takes at whatever cost to himself to meet his full responsibility to the creation that he gives his life to create. The implications of this are sweeping and profound, but most Christians will see this as heresy at best and blasphemy at worst–so be it.

Thirty years ago when in a very dark place I found hope in seeing the real God in the darkest and most godforsaken of places: Jesus dying at Golgotha. This was the end of the theistic god, the end of man’s religion of trying to find/reach god, of striving to make themselves worthy of god or become a god. This is when the veil of theism, both of Christianity and philosophy, began to fall away from my understanding of God and allowed me to begin to see the first glimmers of the God revealed in the life, death and resurrection of the supreme atheist: Jesus of Nazareth. I gave up all identification of being a Christian a few years later and have not looked back in regret since.

“When God becomes man in Jesus of Nazareth, he not only enters into the finitude of man, but in his death on the cross also enters into the situation of man’s godforsakenness. In Jesus he does not die the natural death of a finite being, but the violent death of the criminal on the cross, the death of complete abandonment by God. The suffering in the passion of Jesus is abandonment, rejection by God, his Father. God does not become a religion, so that man participates in him by corresponding religious thoughts and feelings. God does not become a law, so that man participates in him through obedience to a law. God does not become an ideal, so that man achieves community with him through constant striving. He humbles himself and takes upon himself the eternal death of the godless and the godforsaken, so that all the godless and the godforsaken can experience communion with him.” Jurgen Moltmann

A God who goes into the depths of existential despair of the very least of his creatures (those who can’t believe, who have lost all hope and are in existential hell) and doesn’t tell them to put on a stiff upper lift and get on with it, but rather comes to the hell they are in and transforms it into the healing spa of His living waters that is freely given to all things without conditions; that is a real God for a real world. This is the scandal of the Gospel that even Christianity, which is a religion–the most pernicious of religions because it co-opts elements of the Gospel–cannot abide but must dilute and modify into something with conditions. The Gospel plus something other than the death and resurrection of the Crucified One is not the Gospel enhanced, it is in fact no Gospel at all–it has become a religious precept.

Christianity may claim exclusive rights to interpreting the Bible and bringing their various versions of the “gospel” to the world: some which are decidedly “bad news” for most of humanity, and others with a more lukewarm version of “good news” that leaves people like yourself (and me too) having a sense of self loathing even to the extent of longing for death. The finger wagging and rejection by those who feel that they are well on the road to salvation is not in anyway the rejection of the One who has taken the lonely, narrow road to Golgotha to be with those who cannot not even begin to crawl towards the light let alone take a first step. The Gospel is for all creatures: believers, non-believers and even (no, especially for) those who don’t have the cognitive ability to believe. No group or institution can lay claim to exclusive rights to it, they can proclaim but never claim it. No one has ownership of it in any sense of the word and no one can exclude any one or anything from the full bounty of life that flows from it. It is something as objectively real and independent of us as was the Big Bang of creation in the beginning–which was done for all things that exist in the universe.

Christianity, especially more conservative forms, has the conceit that they alone take the sin and the wickedness of the world very seriously. They insist that God is holy and sovereign and his love is stern and tough because that is what it takes when you have a realistic appreciation of the gravity and destructiveness of sin and therefore the most extreme measures on the perpetrators must be taken to effectively and decisively deal with it. The justice of God is claimed to be retributive and punitive. You can get the “hellishness” out of them only by beating (chastising) the hell out of them. The “gospel of hell” as it were: being saved from eternal hell by passing through the crucible of a temporary purgation hell. In truth they do not take the dimensions of sin seriously enough or appreciate that it is much more than our individual sins that is the problem. The obsession with personal sin is more an expression of obsession with one’s self and one’s ultimate destiny (reward and punishment) than it is about the justice (the even-handed generosity of God’s healing, transforming life freely given to all) of God being fully manifest in the world making all things right by making all things new in an act of new creation as momentous and universal as creation in the beginning.

There is no fear in the judgment of God. Judgment is not about determining the degree of guilt or innocence and and then applying appropriate reward or punishment. To judge, in both the Hebrew sense and in what Jesus embodied in the way he dealt with people, is to heal/save and never to punish/condemn. Those that Jesus healed experienced it as evidence that God was not against them, nor angry or holding them responsible for the state of their lives. He made them whole without them having to be punished or chastised first. They had been punished enough by simply being alive in a godless, unjust world. His healing was a deliverance from the punishing brutality of the world as it is. To judge is to diagnose the illness (sin) so that the appropriate healing treatment can be applied; and no, God/Jesus doesn’t have to resort to a harsh treatment regimen to get the job done. That was taken from us at Golgotha by the One who takes full responsibility and ownership of the consequences of sin.

But at the end of the day all that I have written here and all that has been written, said and argued by countless others does not meet the desperate needs and anguished nihilistic despair of a long suffering world that is now approaching unprecedented levels of suffering and death. Nothing less than God becoming manifestly real in a universal and unequivocal way will do. No more theology, nor more special mystical experiences, nor more believers and nonbelievers only the Living One coming home to dwell in his creation

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Hi Andre,

It’s my prayer that you meet “Jesus with skin-on”, someone who embodies the character of Jesus so wonderfully that you feel the love of God tangibly as you have never felt before. And I pray for you and I that you have an increasingly powerful and wonderful revelation of God’s love for you. From childhood I’ve been gifted with faith, and I can’t imagine living without it. But I recognize that faith is something that is a gift, not something that I worked up on my own or that I “chose”. It was something that my parents had and gave to me; and yet it seems I got a double dose. So I can only imagine what it is to go through life struggling with having faith in God. My heart truly goes out to you and I pray that you will soon encounter our Father as you have never enountered Him before!

May our Father bless you and keep you during this dark-time for you.
your brother and friend,
Sherman

It makes sense that Jesus came to repent and was thus fulfilling all righteousness by being baptized.

Repentance means to take ownership and full responsibility for the harm you have caused and then where possible to put things back the way they should be.

This I believe is what Jesus came for - to bare the blame and take the whole mess upon His shoulders, and then restore all things.

What is my reaction? I am in awe and desire to follow in this path and take ownership of the harm I have caused and in whatever great or small ways possible to put things back as they should be.

Thank you for all the replies. I’m overwhelmed; you all made good points here. I will try to address individual posts over the weekend.

Hi Rob,
I have not had much time lately for reading and posting, but I just wanted to remind you that you don’t have to earn God’s love – Christ is proof of his love for fallen and sin-filled mankind. Coming from a background of Lordship Salvation as you have, I wonder if that is the thing that trips you up.

He always loves us and nothing can separate us from His love.

If He does ask a lot of us, He also promises to be there helping us as well. But our focus should be on Him, not on ourselves and our sins. Instead of thinking about all the things we need to not do, we should turn our focus to Christ and make it a goal to emulate Him … to be seeking out good work to do, seeking His guidance. “If we walk by the Spirit, we will not carry out the deeds of the flesh.”

I have not read all your posts, and a lot of what I did read was quickly skimmed, so I apologise if I’m aiming wrong with this post. We all have our own issues to work through, and I hope our comments are helpful to you in that.

Blessings to you,
Sonia

I have gone through a similar struggle Andre. But I finally realised, not only can I not trust my feelings, I cannot trust my mind. Feelings change and with them our thoughts. Which means if I am relying on a renewed mind I am bound to fall into temptation (a lot ).

So what is my situation? What am I?

When I look at my character I know I’m not good. Sure I’m good when things are good, but what about when they are bad?

I can’t trust myself. I am weak.

Yet God loves me and has forgiven all my past sins. That is what I have to remember. He who has been forgiven much loves much.

When I think I’m strong, then I am weak; I am ripe to fall into temptation. But when I know I’m weak, then I am strong. For that is when I really seek God for help, thanking him for the good things he has given me and turning to him in humble obedience.

Thank you bro! Yes it is a belief issue for me; its also I think a law and grace issue. I have pondered this several times over the years, that I and likely every human being is either living via law or grace. Living via law (including all the internal shoulds) will make one insane; it will make you a rebel or a pharisee.

I meant Christianity itself; I gave up on the system a long time ago. G D I, baby!

That’s a helluva undertaking, to submit one’s self totally to God! I think I would have to trust Him more before I could do that.

I agree except for the personal experience part. I sometimes feel a strong pull towards a “greater reality”. Of course it could just be wishful thinking or a desire to go back to being three, when everything was fine! However there are specific things in Christianity, mainly accounts in the Bible that I have a hard time accepting; miracles, demons, angels, virgin birth, etc.

I wonder if its a matter of my being an introvert and a bit OCD; I am constantly scanning my thoughts and behavior and then heaping judgment upon myself. Maybe those who were a bit harsh with me are actually more psychologically healthy, just not as aware of people like myself and our struggles.

Wow, thanks! :slight_smile:

I can repent and five minutes later (or seconds) I do the same thing. Its exhausting and I no longer even try. There has to be a better way, one that involves healing of deeper things. Not to sound therapeutic or anything!

I disagree. If I was to accept this I would be a basket case, or more likely even more of a bastard as I project my guilt onto others.

That you believe in ultimate reconciliation makes you a totally different animal to all the scary “preachers” I’ve endured, but still here you sound like them. No offense!

I think I understand this. In my case after I got to a place where I saw that UR made a good case, I was flooded with doubts about Christianity itself. Seems that when fear goes, all the little questions become more apparent.

I read something similar some months ago in the Gita; something about not abandoning the battle because you can’t escape the war.

Okay, break time!

This is hard for me to grok. I seem to instinctively think of God as a transcendent other; maybe its a cultural thing, a legacy of Platonism. I also have to admit its kind of scary, the notion of God coming, on the way. Who is this? What’s it going to do when it arrives? Its a notion far from one I’m used to .

I liked the book too, but I have to admit I am a bit disturbed by the idea of God changing. I like to think of God as a Rock, an underlying reality that is wholly good and foundational. To think of God changing makes me wonder if he could change back to his old ways. It makes me wonder who’s in charge.

This I find utterly compelling, the idea of God taking responsibility for the mess that is. However as I said I am disturbed by the idea of God changing his mind as if he made a mistake. I would rather it be that somehow like its impossible for there to be a square circle, its likewise impossible that there could be rational self-aware creatures without some suffering and discord; yet it is this that still breaks God’s heart and he incarnates and dies as an expression of that. He is sorrowful but not as one who messed up, but more like a parent watching their child undergo some painful physical therapy (as an example) and feeling sorrow for their child’s pain. Its not calculated, but real immediate feeling on God’s part.

Radical and scandalous and I needed to hear it. Thank you.

What can I say? Thou almost persuadeth me to become a Christian…

Amen.

Break.

Rob, I am really glad you started this thread. I know you were feeling great anguish when wrote the opening post but you have done a kind service to others by raising something that many others are struggling with. What you expressed is at the core of human concerns and yearnings for some light and truth in this world and that seems to be increasingly hard to come by.

If it was the theistic god of religion or philosophy I would also be apprehensive about an omnipotent god bent on inflicting chastisement and retribution coming our way This is by and large what Christianity has been telling the world for two millenia. Hardly “good news” that will be warmly received by the world.

The omni god (all powerful, all knowing etc.) who is impassible (cannot not suffer and die), is a projection of the human mind–a god made in our own image. The authentic image of the living God is not something we have to use mental constructs to define. We have the living person of Jesus of Nazareth for that instead. Jesus is not god, instead God is Jesus. It is Jesus who defines what God is and not the other way around. Christianity starts with the theistic model of what God is and has superimposed it on the self-revelation of God in Jesus of Nazareth therefore forcing Jesus to conform to that preconceived model. It is an integral part of the veil of religion that prevents people from seeing the simple truth of the Gospel.

So what is that simple truth of the Gospel? It is that the creator of the universe desires one thing above all: to give Himself away. That’s what the agape of God is. It is not a principal of love that can be nuanced to mean all sorts of things; even so-called tough love which can be used to rationalize and justify the torment of the “loved” even if it results in a good end for the one being tormented/loved. It is the actuality of love that Paul defines in a very specific, concrete way: Jesus Christ crucified. This is not an appeasing sacrifice to God it is in truth the life of God going into the most godforsaken hells to heal the broken, find the lost and raise the dead to life. It is the Living God losing himself in all of creation to bring it to its completion where all negative possibilities become impossible and all positive possibilities once thought impossible become possible.

This is the God that is coming towards us.

The idea that God changes his mind or repents is not a revolutionary idea as far as the biblical witness is concerned. There are many instances in the OT of YHWH having a change of mind. That does not mean that He changes who He fundamentally is: agape that desires only to give Himself away to the other–all of creation. YHWH is usually translated as “I am that I am,” which tends to convey the classical theistic impression of God being immutable. A better rendering would be “I shall be what I shall be.” or “I will become what I will become.” This is truer to the dynamic living God revealed in Jesus Christ who is love, than is the ossified immutable god who is a mental construct (idol) formed by the mind of man. YHWH becoming the man Jesus is both radical and scandalous and is considered to be high blasphemy by Jews and many others to this day.

As far as being in charge. Well that too is a concern that is derived from the theistic/sovereignty model of God: God as the absolute power in the universe reigning from the top down. This is once again a projection of man’s yearnings for security against chaos by the use of power to control others. Jesus demonstrates that God is doing a new thing that has never been seen before. God is using non-power to overcome all the powers, even the power of chaos/death itself.
The non-power of God is Jesus crucified on a Roman cross freely giving away the healing, transforming life of God inundating every dimension of creation from the smallest to the greatest with living waters of life.

The coming of God does not come from the top down or from heaven to Earth. His coming begins with the His kenosis (self-emptying) being born into the world as the infant Jesus in humble and dangerous circumstances. The coming of God reaches its nadir (apex really) at Golgotha where the life of God is taken into the abyss of death and nothingness filling it and transforming it into a font of living waters bursting forth as the resurrection of all things. This presence is with the least and hopelessly lost and not with the powerful and self-assuered. But when the veil is finally removed all will see the truth of who God is and what He has done for all creation: beholding that we will all be born anew (resurrected) in a moment of time: the last moment. It is not really eschatology, the last things, it is about the new things. The new wine of His life filling the new wineskin of the resurrected universe of a radically transformed physicality.

I think we are well past the Christian era. Christianity has become part of the fabric of the veil concealing the truth of God made real in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Once again it will be up to God to roll up His sleeves and do what we have failed to do: Proclaim the aionian Gospel to all creation. But the proclamation will not be a mere message it will be the resurrection of all things. Finally the dikaiosune (equitableness) of God will be fulfilled in that moment of His appearing.

Hi, Rob

I haven’t read the whole thread, but of what I have read, there have been a lot of good things said here – both by others and by yourself. I didn’t respond right away because I think I’ve said things that hurt you (which wasn’t my intent) and I figured others might be able to communicate with you better than me.

But I do want to respond to this thing that you said:

I think you’ve analyzed a lot of us right here. The bit about heaping judgment on yourself – I believe that most of us (at least in our quiet alone moments) do this. I’ve spent months and years loathing myself for past and present sins, and Abba has helped me to recover from this. So although I still remember with pain many things in my past, I don’t suffer from those things any more. Some people seem to think that we should do what I used to do – that we should do it and be doing it all the time, and live in a state of sorrow over our past sins. Maybe that is a good thing for them; I don’t know; but it was death to me.

If I’m convicted about something recent, that definitely hurts. It’s probably like putting your hand on the stove, that pain. You don’t want to touch a hot stove and not feel it. If I touch the wood stove as I’m putting fuel in, I feel it right away and pull away my hand. I pray over it and God heals it (usually right away), but after I do that, I’m more careful not to do it again (until I forget one evening, when I’m not thinking about what I’m doing).

But the pain teaches me; don’t do that – it’s bad. Then God heals me and it stops hurting (if it WAS hurting – often it’s bad enough that it doesn’t hurt, except at the edges :laughing: ). Usually by the next day, it looks like an old, healed burn, and soon it disappears all together. Now let me tell you what happens if I don’t ask for healing: the burn will be white or dark and ashy looking, and the next day it will start to get yellow unless I carefully wash it and keep it clean. If it gets infected, it could take weeks or longer to heal. These are small burns but usually 3rd degree because of the heat of the metal.

That’s a huge picture for me. God doesn’t want me to sin, but if I do sin, I have an advocate with the Father; Jesus Christ the righteous. He gave Himself to set me free from sin. I repent; He forgives – no more pain, but I DO NOT want to do that again. If He thought I needed the pain to help me remember, then I guess He’d have me keep it a bit longer. If I don’t go to Him for “treatment,” then the sin will fester and make me miserable and the repercussions of the guilt will grow until I do go to Him for forgiveness.

Of course, there can be other natural consequences for sin, especially if the sin goes beyond the coveting and/or internal and private phases, but I don’t get the impression that’s what you’re dealing with at this point.

One of the sisters was weeping and miserable last night at our gathering, heaping condemnation on herself because she thought she was at fault for not receiving healing – not having enough faith. That is NOT from Father. He doesn’t do that. Thanks to God He brought up the issue that she was hurting over, so that she could receive encouragement and love from the rest of the body. That condemnation is not from God, but from the adversary. (And besides the burden of faith for healing the sick should rest primarily on the shoulders of the one ministering, not on the back of the sick person, who is already weak – but that’s another subject entirely!)

If you’re feeling hopeless condemnation, Rob, that is not from Father! He doesn’t do that. The enemy does that. Now the enemy will jump on board any time that the Holy Spirit does convict you of some sin. HS will say gently, “You did wrong. You’re forgiven; go and sin no more,” and then the enemy will come in with “You no good dirty rotten scum-ball. How could you screw up like that AGAIN? You’ll NEVER learn. You’ll NEVER stop this @&%$. You’ll never be free! God hates you because you’re a worthless piece of garbage . . . .” I’m sure he doesn’t stop there, either. That is the voice of the condemner, not the voice of the Lord. It’s not even the voice of Rob.

Only the first part – the gentle part – is from God. Listen to that voice; that is the Shepherd. He calls you because He loves you. “Follow Me and I’ll take you to a banquet of choice foods and finest wines. My banner over you is love.” That is the Shepherd – not the guy telling you you’re no good. Jesus is your creator. He says that you are very good. He is pleased with you. He loves you and rejoices over you with singing. He inhabits your heart and knows you through and through – and loves you and will never think you hopeless or not worth the trouble. NOTHING can separate you from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus your Lord.

In His eyes, you are that pearl of great price; that treasure hid in the field. He can’t and won’t do without you, Rob. You’re that important, and you’re NOT a disappointment.

Love, Cindy

No, you said nothing hurtful to me; thank you for replying.

Repentance is an active attitude as much as particular actions, if that helps any. :slight_smile: By which I mean, I don’t think God expects me to repent of every single instance of sin (not in this life anyway, which would be impossible). But if I know I’m doing something wrong, and that I shouldn’t do it, I can trust God to free me from it eventually (or from other sins if I happen to be wrong about that being a sin–but the attitude of the heart is still important). That’s a type of overarching repentance and renunciation of what I’m doing.

I’m still expected to resist temptations with whatever strength I’m currently given. But I don’t have to win every battle. The main thing is to seriously take sides with God against my sin.

On the other hand…

…if I wasn’t prepared to acknowledge that I’m sinning against other people (up to and including God), and that I ought to stop it, then I could hardly be taking sides with God against my sin.

I can see how I might then also easily be inclined to treat God as being the abusive spouse showing back up time and time again with promises not to harass and abuse me again: God must be abusing me if I’m not abusing other people, when He insists that I stop doing things and having various attitudes.

But if I was actually guilty of abusing other people, then I would be projecting my guilt onto God by going this route.

None taken. :slight_smile: That was supposed to sound at least a little scary, so I couldn’t be offended for someone thinking it’s scary sounding. :sunglasses:

Perfect love may cast out fear of chastisement, but so do plenty of lesser things, too. I don’t recommend settling for less than attaining perfect love. Until then, fear of chastisement is proportionately proper. We shouldn’t be afraid of a fear of chastisement, is what I’m trying to say, I guess! :laughing:

(Although fear of being unjust to other persons would be infinitely much better than fear of chastisement. Whereas concentrating on being loving and fair to other persons is infinitely better again than fear of being unfair to them. :slight_smile: But at that point someone would be perfected in love, and so would have no fear anymore of slipping into being unfair to them, while still acknowledging the technical possibility of doing so: perfect love is a perfect continual choice to go one way instead of another.)