I Want to Shout in Church!


#1

At church yesterday a friend of mine gave the sermon. He preached a very ‘John Piper’-esque message about how there is no sacred/secular split and that all things are sacred when we do them to the glory of God. He kept emphasizing: ALL things. He went on to talk about how God was going to, in the end, reconcile ALL things. He even concluded by quoting Colossians 1:19-20 “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” He said again, “to reconcile to himself” what? Congregation said “All things.” He then followed up: What is included in "all things’? Congregation replied “All things.”

Inside I wanted to shout: Don’t you see what this means?! All things includes all things which means…ALL PEOPLE TOO!!! It’s so funny because I feel like they say all things but they mean “all things…except most of humanity” which is NOT all things! We might as well rewrite the scripture as:

“For God was pleased to have SOME his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself SOME things, but not all, whether things on earth or things in heaven, but not in hell, by making peace to a lot of people through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Just had to rant. Thanks for listening,
Denver


#2

I surely know how you feel… {sigh} :wink:

God willing, someday I will be able to speak at churches in my area (at least), and bring the fullness of the gospel. Until then, the most I can do is nudge.


#3

Preach away Jason! I’m listening my friend :smiley:


#4

Ah, yes. Nudgers Anonymous…

I know how you feel as well.


#5

Oh, I can relate to this very much so. When I hear people saying things that are very much in line with the restitution of ALL things I always want to say, “Don’t you see what you are saying”??? But, they usually don’t…


#6

I was trying to lead a friend of mine to understand what “all things” means/implies, and his mindset was so traditional he just wasn’t getting it…

Me: “So, ‘all things’ means what…?”
Him: “All ‘things.’”
Me: “Which is…?”
Him: “Things, you know, stuff, creation.”
Me: “Which includes, say, all people?”
Him: “No, it says ‘all things,’ not ‘people.’”
Me: “You don’t think it includes people?”
Him: “No! It says ‘things’!”
Me: “You’re telling me God cares more about redeeming this table to himself than he does a person?!”

Anyway, turns out the Greek doesn’t even have a word for “things” in that expression; it’s more literally like “the all.” Which includes ALL that was created and came through Christ, as explained in the previous verses!


#7

The reconciliation of all things is an interesting topic to discuss with an ECTer. It usually ends with some strange twisted definition of a word (reconciled) that really isn’t that hard to define so that all can include those in ECT.

I’ve never seen two people claiming to be reconciled where one of the parties venomously hates the other and would prefer to have their own flesh seared from the bone than to relate at all with the other party.

Have you?

Oh, and then there is the argument that God is the one reconciled to the fact that most of the humans He has created will have their middle fingers extended while spewing venomous hate at Him for all eternity – and of course God is also reconciled to the fact that He will have to torture them forever for refusing His kind offer.

Then after pointing out the absurdity of these notions I’m the one that gets accused of twisting scripture to fit my own presuppositions.


#8

David,
I’ve seen that too. I’m not sure how “reconcile” can mean anything but restoration to peace and proper relationship.

Paul even defines it in Col 1:
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Paul contrasts their former alienation from God and enemy status because of sin, with their current state of reconciliation to God through Christ, being presented holy and blameless before Him.

Sonia


What does "reconcile" mean?
#9

Ok, that is sad and funny at the same time. "All’ things do not include people, WOW!