I was reading the one on one with Alex and Luke, thought I would share some ideas.
It may be that Adam and Eve were comfortable and, knowing nothing but comfort and peace in relationship with God, had no idea what they were getting into. In the YLT, Eve said, “the serpent caused me to forget” and I do eat. Adam did not forget but, became a type of Messiah, giving himself up for his bride. He gave everything for her, even relationship with God. Just like Christ emptied himself to walk in flesh and die for His bride. Adam and Eve’s “eyes were opened”. It is the opposite for us now, we know sin and darkness. And, our eyes “need to be opened” to God, to relationship with Him. IMO, there is a benefit to sin, in a sense, that is, that you know what grace you have been given when your “eyes are opened” to your own sin. Many in this world intentionally close their eyes to their own sins. On the day they are judged, their eyes will be opened. They will have to own up to their sin and, in that day, through fire, they will know God is just and fair. Their eyes will be opened to the truth they have been ignorant of, or rejected their whole life. There will be no distraction for them as there is now, no alternate realities. How could they say, God is bad, when they know the reality if their own sin and that they are being treated fairly? And, if God is just, He is good. What unjust god would be good? Those paying for their sin will know this and, because their eyes will be opened to see that He is their only chance and that He is good, they will then desire relationship with Him. What other god or reality offers such a thing? At their very lowest, most would reject them but, God, in His love continues to hold out his hand, offering to pull them from the fire. No one, especially at that point will be insane enough to want to continue in a state of rebellion.
I was reading the one on one with Alex and Luke, thought I would share some ideas.
Then Adam said, “The woman you gave me has fallen into darkness. I no longer know her, nor where she has gone. Before, she was light. Now I see nothing but shadows.”
The Lord replied, “Will you go to her? Will you join her in her darkness? Will you eat the fruit also?”
Adam said, “She is flesh of my flesh. My heart is joined to hers.”
The Lord said, “Go. Taste death. Join your wife in her suffering. And when the time is right I also will come to you, with healing in my wings.”
Adam went to his wife and ate the fruit, and his eyes were opened. He knew he was naked, and was afraid.
That is beautiful, Allan. Did you write this or are you quoting?
I wrote it. Your suggestion puts quite a different spin on Adam’s fall…
I think of Adam and Eve as innocent children, not knowing good and evil. Their fall was planned from the beginning. It was a necessary step in them/us all growing into the fullness of Christ.
Scripture is quite clear that Adam did not see death when he ate of the tree of knowledge through Woman, why? Because He named her Eve, Mother of Life. It always amazed me how many people read the Genesis story and decide to take the ‘traditional’ understanding over what is actually written as the correct way of understanding it. Glad to when the truth of the Gospel of Salvation is for All Humanity through Jesus Christ, that the truth becomes clear. Because He ate of the fruit, He NOW can eat of the Tree of Life something he had no access to prior to eating of the Tree of Knowledge.
Genesis 3:20-22 Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”
It does raise the huge question of does one need to be first lost, in order to be saved?
I’ll have to ponder this some more. It’s certainly very interesting rereading things for the first time since becoming an EU
Thanks everyone for ideas
I think it’s all the same to Him. From the foundation of the world. We could even say we are saved before we’re lost, like Adam and Eve. Lol! All the same, all eyes will be opened.
I don’t mean to hijack this topic, but since we can’t reply directly to their topics, this seemed a likely place.
Actually, I now think aionios is a simple word if we’re merely consistent with it. It means, pertaining to/ of an age or ages, or age-during. Full stop.
Let the theological chips fall where they may. (And no, I’m not implying that God is not “everlasting” or that our post resurrection life with Him will not be; just that we simply don’t get that information from the word aionios).
Thanks. My first approach developed from this, although you’re right, I need to take a step back and review.
I agree, I have to do that with my first approach too
Luke: *At the moment you’re are Calvinist Universalist because you’re arguing that all of God’s actions in the world are bringing everyone eventually to salvation. (Calvinists would hold that regeneration begins at predestination, that the Holy Spirit is at work in all the elect, even in some before they make a profession of faith.) A Calvinistic-Universlaist-Hell could be quite short lived, the Holy Spirit does his work and everyone is saved quite quickly, because God, is the one who motivates repentance and gives faith. This is the central advantage of a Calvinistic Universalism it rightly gives God the sovereignty.
[My counter argument here is that election is about God only choosing some, and allowing the rest to get what they have chosen and deserve.]*
Of course, the problem here is that the scripture is clear about the purpose and nature of election. Election to firstfruit status is just the beginning, and the purpose of the elect firstfruits is to participate in bringing in the rest of the harvest. Election is not about being a part of some predetermined exclusive club, it is an election to an office for the purpose of administering the ministry of reconciliation to everyone else.
*An Arminian Universalist, would say God lets most people do what they want until Hell, where he gives them lots of time and opportunities to repent. An Arminian Universalist Hell could conceivably last close to eternity as a few die hards, eg Hitler etc would keep choosing to stay in Hell. The central advantage of Arminian Universalism is that it respects the free will of people to choose life away from God if they want to.
[My counter argument here is that Adam and Eve, were in the best possible place to choose God but didn’t so no amount of time in Hell will sway someone from what they truly want.]*
And this is part of why arguments from hell (from either side; universalist and non, IMO) are flawed. Scripture properly translated and understood contains no “hell” as traditionally taught; only judgment and chastisement for the eon, and clearly with the purpose of restoration of the individual to righteousness. It’s sort of like ‘eschatological community service’, as I understand it. Isaiah is quite clear that God’s judgments produce learning of righteousness. The clear purpose is to rehabilitate, refine and reform. This simply makes sense, because any real healing involves process.
Besides which; on the traditional view of hell, I very much doubt that anyone would be able to hold out on God for long!
I’d wanted to post on this topic too, but couldn’t for some reason. Kelly, your idea that Adam gives himself up the way Christ does is exactly the idea my husband has. That is amazing! He’s felt so alone in his ideas and will be thrilled that someone else also sees what he does. I’ll have to point him over there. That there is benefit to sin reminds me of Rom. 11:32 that we’re all bound to disobedience that God might have mercy on us. Whatever the case something good will come out of all this madness and God will see to it.
Well said Melchizedek. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to suggest that ‘elect’ equates with ‘the sole inhabitants of heaven’.
Thanks that’s encouraging. I agree and I’ve explained this to Luke before. It’s just I’m stretched keeping up with all the threads on the forum & FB
Sorry Amy, the “Alex & Luke” threads are restricted to just me replying so Luke doesn’t get outnumbered.
“Kelly, your idea that Adam gives himself up the way Christ does is exactly the idea my husband has. That is amazing! He’s felt so alone in his ideas and will be thrilled that someone else also sees what he does.”
I hope he is encouraged, Amy! I see these Patterns, types and shadows all through Scripture. For me, it’s like playing hide and seek with God. I find Him peeking out at me from just beyond the literal text, with a huge smile.