The Evangelical Universalist Forum

If Eternal Hell Fire Damnation is True . .

If Eternal Hell Fire Damnation is True why did God never inform Adam and Eve of such a fate?

Why did he never tell Cain concerning such a fate for murdering Abel?

Why did God not say one word of such a horrible fate by warning the people before the flood of Noah’s day?

In fact, if eternal hell fire and damnation is true, why, for thousands of years was God silent on such a horrible fate?

Why didn’t God apprise Moses of such a fate and warn the Israelites that should they break His holy laws such a fate awaits them?

You would think that if such an existence awaits the majority of mankind that it would be on every page of the Bible.

Do you think when all these people come before God that God will say: “Well, sorry chaps but I forgot that part about the eternal torment”?

Exactly. If there were such a thing as never-ending Hell, one wouldn’t have to rely upon incorrect translations and forced exegesis to “discover” it. Why would God make His revelation of Hell only through men whose only qualification is their manifest inability to read and understand a text?

(As a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, I have a parallel argument: Throughout the entire pre-modern history of the Church, at least 99% of believers got all of their religious instruction solely through participating in the Church’s liturgies. So why could a man attend these liturgies all of his life, yet never get an inkling that never-ending Hell existed?)

As far as I can tell, never-ending Hell exists only in the following three places in Christendom:

  1. On the pages of some turgid religious writings.

  2. In the minds of Christians infected by said writings.

  3. In the popular consciousness. Similar examples of things that everybody “knows” but are incorrect:

A. Most Europeans in 1492 thought the world was flat, but Columbus proved them wrong. (Facts: Virtually all Europeans knew that the world is spherical. Dante even wrote about how the center of the Earth is the planet’s center of gravity, so if one descended in a pit to the Earth’s center and kept going in a straight line, he would have to start ascending once he got farther than the center.)

B. The fictional Conan the barbarian was an ignorant fellow who dressed only in boots and a loin cloth. (Facts: Conan was intelligent and multi-lingual. He also wore clothing and armor every chance he could get, which was most of the time.)

Etc.

As Mark Twain wrote in his notebook in 1904: “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).” This is not humor, but grave truth. When any given thing is believed by the majority, what is the chance that each of those people independently reasoned to that conclusion? Zero percent. Thus, when you find yourself agreeing with the majority, it is likely that your agreement is based upon ignorantly following the herd rather than upon reason. Of course, the majority can conceivably be right, but only accidentally. If an illiterate man is given a multiple choice question (A, B, C, or D), he will be right 25% of the time through sheer luck.

The superstition of never-ending Hell must be the stupidest and most pernicious piece of poppycock ever to burden the human mind. I would much rather tell a group of people I was trying to impress that I had shaken Sasquatch’s hand than tell them that I believed in never-ending Hell.

Geoffrey, nice post.

I would even go so far as to suggest that salvation today is just a form of fire insurance.

I play in a church band every other week at a Christian Reformed church just because my friend needs me to play with him. Otherwise I feel like I am enabling the people there in their blindness.

Anyway, the pastor had all the folks come up front who are joining their church. He told them to agree out loud with his questions. Do you believe this and believe that? etc. etc. Do you repent of your sins? bla bla bla. But there was nothing there from Romans 4:24,25 or 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. He was just inducting a bunch of pagans into their “church.” Sorry to be so candid about it and don’t mean to ruffle any feathers of any CRC goers here. But then in his message he talked about eternal hell. I almost made up my mind then and there to stop playing there. It is so sad to realize that probably 100% of the attendees actually agree with everything the pastor says. And we wonder why we get so much flack from church-goers for believing in God saving all?

G - I DO wish you would make yourself clear!! :laughing:
I agree - good post.

There is a lot of fixation on hell in this forum but let me repost this regardless of that fact as many seem ignorant of the truth, or the lie of hell.

If a god actually created a hell, he would definitely be a vile demiurge.

Such a place would be demonstrably immoral and only those who have sold their moral soul to Satan would follow any god who would create or use such a place.

youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL

[size=150]Brilliant :exclamation: That was so good it needs posting again…[/size]

On the other hand, it’s kind of interesting that God also apparently didn’t tell the Hebrews about Heaven and eternal life, at least not for quite some time. Throughout most of the OT, it seems that the Hebrews didn’t have a concept of any kind of after-life. I’m not sure what to make of that, but it seems clear that withholding information about eternal life would be a much less serious problem than withholding information about eternal punishment.

Good observation.

I don’t think this is a bothersome issue, though, for two reasons:

  1. Eternal life is a nice surprise. I can’t imagine anyone getting upset over a surprise party.

  2. I think God was really trying to underscore death, the penalty for Adam and Eve’s sin in the Garden. For over a thousand generations after Adam when a man died, he simply died. Men did not have an afterlife until A. D. 30 when Christ led all the disembodied souls out of the grave up to Heaven.

I’m inclined to think life for the Hebrews in the here-after with God would have been an assumed reality; their mindset being more focused on THIS LIFE with God. I like the way Tom Wright puts it…

One point I’d like to note is the needless contortions placed upon the Mt 25:46 text with regards to who’s in or who’s out. The “eternal” aspects of either life OR punishment are one and the same and are best understood according to Jesus’ own QUALITATIVE definition as found in Jn 17:3 where said “eternal life” is equated with the blessedness of “to KNOW God…” which speaks to realising the FULLNESS of God in LIFE, in this life. This then follows the same thought previously stated by Jesus in Jn 10:10 with regards to obtaining LIFE TO THE FULL i.e., “fullness of life” – in THIS LIFE.

Thus the QUALITATIVE meaning shows that in the soon coming ‘Day of the Lord’ either life OR punishment would be known in all its TOTALITY or fullness; even in that period were some coming to experience this reality in terms of being “dead in trespasses and sins” but responding to the gospel of covenant renewal and thus “live” = resurrection…

Paidion’s definition is correct to a point. Actually aiwn just means “duration.” Aiwnion means “pertaining to the duration.” We look to definitive scriptures to determine if that duration is unending. It is not. All the aiwns end.

We have nouns and adjectives regarding this issue. For instance, aiwn is a noun. The Bible says the aiwns end. Therefore they cannot be eternal. Aiwnion is derived from the noun “aiwn” and it modifies a noun and tells us concerning that which is pertaining to its noun.

For instance we have these examples:

America = noun
American = adjective
Bush was the American president. His presidency pertaining to America.

Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The Heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel’s realm pertains to Heaven.

Aiwn = noun
Aiwnion = adjectiver
These shall go away into aiwnion chastening yet these into aiwnion life. Both the chastening and the life pertain to the aiwn in question.

In Romans 16:26 it is stated that “the injunction of the eonian God.” This is not telling us how long God lasts. He is not, as some versions say “the ever-lasting God.” Rather it is informing us concerning God and His relationship to the eons. Being the eonian God, His Godness is pertaining to the eons in that He is over them, directing the goal for each eon. When the eons end God will still be around.

That works for Paidion and I’m good with that. :mrgreen:

For mine… given that “aiōn” <αἰών> is the primary root word and among other things means… “a period of time of significant character; an era; an age” ([size=85]The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, 1978 Edition, Harold K. Moulton, p. 11[/size]) I think “age-lasting” or “age-enduring” are reasonable translations for such cognates as “aiōnion” <αἰώνιον>, as found in Mt 25:46.

IOW… however long the said “life” for some transpires the equivalent time-frame for said “punishment” likewise transpires for the others.

Why do you think “age-lasting” or “age-enduring” are okay for aiwnion? Do you think where it is written that “According to the injunction of the eonian God” that that is telling us God is age-lasting or age-enduring?

Or do you think if I say “Obama is the American president” that I mean he is the America-lasting or America-enduring president?

It’s more like America enduring him…

:laughing:

:question: :confused: Given that you just quoted the explanation I’d given to qaz… why not simply READ it again, for therein is the answer.

It seems that Christians had a better pipeline to God than the Jews did.

The ancients would not agree with that of course as they were brighter than Christianity became.

That or Christians were better liars. If history is to be believed, Christianity never stopped lying to us.

Here they talik of what can be known of God. Nothing.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Heaven and hell need faith and literal reading of myths to become real.

Literalist Christianity should have listened more to it’s wiser ancients.

pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”

Regards
DL

It is quite strange to hear a man of the cloth speaking the truth.

FMPOV, all priests and imams are perpetual liars.

Regards
DL

You have to recognize that to Jews, there is no Original sin and thus no need of a savior which is why most Jews rejected Jesus as savior.

Christianity wanted to vilify Jews, women and the many serpent cults that were all over the world in those days and so chose to reverse man’s elevation in Eden, as written by the Jews, — to the fall of man.

dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ … -theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL

By “original sin” do you mean the original sin of Adam? Or do you mean the sin that supposedly passed into all mankind? If the latter, it was not sin that passed through but rather death according to the Jew, the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:12. And due to death being passed through to Adam’s offspring, all sin.

That doesn’t make sense that Christianity wanted to vilify Jews back in the beginning of Christendom since the early Chrsitians were Jews.

I think it is best to stick the the early Jews such as Jesus, Peter, Paul etc. who got the story right.

They were not early Jews. They were Roman inventions.

Only fools will believe that the wages of sin is death or that man can or ever lived eternally.

There is some wisdom in scriptures but clear thinkers will recognize the fantasy parts.

Christians see A & E as choosing a moral sense over ignorant bliss as a sin.

Jews saw the value of a moral sense and so do I.

Would you give up yours for ignorant bliss?

Regards
DL