If Jesus didn't teach UR why would His Apostles???


#1

:unamused:


#2

They wouldn’t, LOL. However, since it is plain that His apostles did teach the reconciliation of all things, I guess you have to infer from that, that Jesus also taught UR–even if you insist on denying our Lord’s own claim that He would draw all men to Himself.

Sonia :smiley:


#3

Sonia.

Again, give proof of Jesus teaching it. Jesus drawing all men to himself simply means being drawn by Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection by the word of God. This is the way the Father draws mankind. How? By the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus by preaching it with the word of God. How do you get saved? By confessing with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believing from your heart that God raised Him from the dead. ( Romans 10:9-10) :wink:


#4

Since the Apostles teach UR, then logic dictates that this was the Gospel Jesus taught.

You put yourself in a corner on this one.

Jesus never wrote a single word of Scripture, it was his disciples and apostles who did. So dig deeper BA, the more you talk the more you defeat yourself.


#5

Craig.

Jesus is the WORD. He is the WORD made flesh.( John 1:14)

Logic, Craig? Is that what your putting your faith in? Logic? How about putting your trust in the word of God and show me in the word of God where Jesus taught Universalism. I don’t put my faith in Logic Craig :wink:


#6

You are naive as you are stubborn.

Where did I say my faith was in logic? I did not, you chose the wrong path brother, you are now going up against a mountain you will not be able to climb and fall very hard.

Your weak attempt at a straw man is defeated by the very definition of the word, “WORD” and it is “LOGOS”. I

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound ugiainousēs: healthy, logical, uncorrupted] doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

In the Beginning was the LOGOS and the LOGOS was with God and the LOGOS was God. Jesus is the LOGOS. He is the LOGOS made flesh.

LOGOS - The embodiment of reason, the divine force in which all things are derived and have it’s form. A word (as embodying an idea), a sound (logical) statement, a faultless (error free) speech.

Colossians 1:15-20
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

All things are logical based on the presupposition in which the propositions and premise is derived. All the propositions and premise which does not line up to the presupposition, is illogical or fallacious and without reason and therefore conclude faulty. Faulty conclusions come from illogical and fallacious premises and propositions which do not support the presupposition it wishes to demonstrate. Faulty definitions are the most common dilemma of illogical or fallacious arguments.

As I said, the more you talk, the more you defeat your own arguments, you do not even know how to discuss things without revealing your ignorance to what you are talking about.

So, are you going to continue down this destructive road? Or are you going to be reasonable and civil, and have an actual discussion about the doctrines in which you and I believe and come to a proper conclusion?


#7

Craig.

Stubborn? a liitle bit. Naive? No way. LOL. Logos=Son: the divine word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus) He is the written Logos. Love ya Craig. :slight_smile:


#8

Unless it’s a rule–a hermeneutical law–that nobody can utter a word about anything about which Jesus did not explicitly declare himself, your question is perfectly ridiculous. But since there’s much in the teachings of the Apostles that never appears anywhere in Jesus’ explicit teachings, and since Jesus before his departure admitted to wanting to discuss much that the disciples weren’t ready to hear, and since the Holy Spirit was promised to lead us into all truth…this ‘rule’ that stands behind your entire approach (without which you don’t even HAVE a question to ask here) can be dismissed.

Tom


#9

Tom.

you said: But since there’s much in the teachings of the Apostles that never appears anywhere in Jesus’ explicit teachings.

Born Again. That is not true Tom. The Pauline Revelations came from Jesus Himself…you know the teachings that were not taught in the Old testament or the Gospels. ( Galatians 1:12)" For I never received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." :wink:


#10

OF COURSE the Pauline revelations come from Jesus. Christ is the divine LOGOS. ALL revelation is his, and his to give.

That’s not the point. The point is that not EVERYTHING later writers discuss was explicitly discussed and taught on by Jesus during his earthly career.

And we’re NOT talking only about the core contents of the GOSPEL message. This hermeneutical rule of yours requires it to be the case that there is NO new revelation about anything which Jesus did not expressly make clear in his teachings recorded in the four gospels. THIS is the rule that your question presumes, and it’s just not true.

Tom


#11

Tom.

My point : What Jesus didn’t teach in the gospels He gave the revelation to Paul to teach in the epistles. Either way…Jesus taught it. You cannot say that about UR because Jesus did not teach it in the gospels nor did He give revelation of it to His Apostles. Before you spew off 10 different scriptures taken out of context…show me the scriptures where Jesus taught it in the gospels and show me Chapter and verse where unbelievers come to faith after they die in their sins. If you can do that. Amen, brother, I’m a Universalist. :wink: :wink:


#12

BA: My point: What Jesus didn’t teach in the gospels He gave the revelation to Paul to teach in the epistles. Either way…Jesus taught it.

Tom: Of course Christ stands behind all truth. That’s a truism (for those of us who are believers at least) hardly worth mentioning. And besides, it seems a bit disingenuous of you now to make this argument when your earlier tactic was to limit us just to the gospel texts and the recorded words of Jesus. Now the whole NT is fair game because Jesus reveals it all (and so teaches it all).

BA: You cannot say that about UR because Jesus did not teach it in the gospels nor did He give revelation of it to His Apostles.

Tom: That’s just mistaken BA. It doesn’t need to be the case that Jesus taught something “in the gospels” in order for Christ to stand behind later revelation of things not taught during his earthly career. You’re very confused.

BA: Before you spew off 10 different scriptures taken out of context…

Tom: See? So predictable.

BA: Show me the scriptures where Jesus taught it in the gospels and show me Chapter and verse where unbelievers come to faith after they die in their sins.

Tom: You make my point for me.

T


#13

Tom.

This is the backbone of UR theology. Where the rubber meets the road. So, I will ask again. Show me the scriptures where Jesus taught it in the gospels and show me Chapter and verse where unbelievers come to faith after they die in their sins.

It is what it is Tom. :wink:


#14

BA,

We are all “dead in our sins” before we come to Christ. I know you know this. You’re thinking is very convoluted, as I pointed out somewhere else–but, then it has to be to make sense of the Scriptures while denying universal reconciliation. :sunglasses:

Sonia


#15

Sonia.
Yes, I know that. I’m asking you or any other UR to show me where people come alive spiritually when they die spiritually dead. Show me the scriptures where Jesus taught it in the gospels and show me Chapter and verse where unbelievers come to faith after they die in their sins.


#16

BA: This is the backbone of UR theology. Where the rubber meets the road. So, I will ask again. Show me the scriptures where Jesus taught it in the gospels and show me Chapter and verse where unbelievers come to faith after they die in their sins.

Tom: You’ll have to ask some universalist who agrees with you that this is the backbone of his/her theology. It’s not the backbone to mine. By “it” I mean your ridiculous insistence upon Jesus actually describing sinners in hell coming to faith.

Tom


#17

Tom.
How do unbelievers get saved after they die in their sins? Where is it in the bible?


#18

Good question. I’d oblige you if I thought you were at all serious. But for now I’m far more interested in HOW the debate is conducted and what assumptions lie beneath the surface.

So let me ask, where is your irrevocable eternal conscious torment in the Bible? Now, I know what verses you’re likely to offer, so you needn’t bother with posting them. Consider them posted. But how would you FEEL if in reply to WHATEVER Scriptures you offered I just replied, “Oh, that’s taken out of context,” “You make me so sad,” or “Oh, that word can mean this or that as well, so the passage is equally evidence for UR as it is for irrevocable conscious torment”?

Tom


#19

But OK…just a bit.

BA: How do unbelievers get saved after they die in their sins?

Tom: How do unbelievers get saved before they die in their sins? They perceive the truth about their need, take responsibility for their sin (i.e., confess it and own up to it), repent and cry out for mercy. I don’t imagine this is done away with in whatever postmortem context the wicked find themselves in.

Tom


#20

Tom.
Ok. If I were serious, Tom? I have been nothing but serious since I have been here. C’mon Tom.

you said: Tom: How do unbelievers get saved before they die in their sins? They perceive the truth about their need, take responsibility for their sin (i.e., confess it and own up to it), repent and cry out for mercy. I don’t imagine this is done away with in whatever postmortem context the wicked find themselves in.

Born again: Ok. How do unbelievers come to faith in Jesus when they die in their sins. If they are in Hell, Who comes and preaches the gospel to them again to give them another chance? Where is this in the bible?