If Jesus didn't teach UR why would His Apostles???

[AUniversalist]

And if you don’t know that universalists don’t need to deny that any of this, then you don’t understand universalism and you SHOULD at least pretend to want to learn something about the view.

T

Exactly! It is not a unviersalist position that there is no hell, though some universalists claim there is none.

The universalsit position is simple. Based on God’s intrinsic nature, there is only two logical ends: 1) Universalism 2) Annihilationism. There is no precedent for eternal torment in Scripture, it is a passed over doctrine of the Roman Emperor Cult and Mythrism. The reason such doctrine remains, is fear and igorance (which have nothing to do with God’s intrinsic nature); and Annihilationism is not found in any premise.

[AUniversalist]

studentoftheword.

I have every right to be here as you do. Are you going to run of Jeffa for being an agnostic? Like I said, if you cannot contribute to this discussion respectfully…do not say anything. Thank you.

I don’t think you understand exactly what JeffA believes. Are you frightened by the word, “agnostic”? LOL.

[AUniversalist]

I never pretended to want to learn about UR.

So no-one here is under any further obligation to explain their position or answer any of your questions. I presume from mow on you will be posting only statements.

Exactly!

[Born_Again]

Studentoftheword.

If you have not noticed I have been having respectful discussions with Aaron, Sonia, Jim, and Tom. They do it in a respectful manner… unlike you.

[JeffA]

Jeffa.

For a guy that pretends to believe in nothing…you sure have a whole lot to say.

I think you overstep the bounds of presumption with that remark.

I will also say that very many things I have said recently you have failed to address because they were too hard for your theology - but then I would be overstepping the mark of presumption (so I won’t say it)

Explain to me how you ‘know’ I pretend to believe in nothing? I can comment on the validity of an argument without believing that argument necessarily says anything about objective reality. I presume you don’t have psychic powers that can read my thoughts.

For example

I can make the observation that the story of the Lord Of The Rings is ultimately about friendship and loyalty rather than good versus evil without believing that the quest for the ring ever happened in reality.

[Born_Again]

Jeff.

Your signature says it all " yours in doubt". Listen, if you want to argue go find someone else. You have already admitted to me your an unbeliever…the bible says your not capable of understanding it because your spiritually discerned, ( 1 Cor 2: 12-14) sorry Jeff, I’m not going to bang my head against the wall arguing with an unbeliever. Put your faith in Jesus and get saved brother. Love ya

[JeffA]

Explain to me how you ‘know’ I pretend to believe in nothing?

[JeffA]

Also I didn’t admit to being an unbeliever as though I were a criminal - I stated I was an unbeliever.

[JeffA]

Oh and by the way - your other thread entitled ‘No one on this UR board can produce scripture…’ doesn’t say ‘No Christian can produce scripture…’ so I am perfectly within my right to provide scripture for you as you have appealed to anyone on these boards not just Christians.

I may just be devil’s advocate

Or Balam’s ass (which is far ruder in America than it is in Britain)

[SLJ]

Jeff.

Your signature says it all " yours in doubt". Listen, if you want to argue go find someone else. You have already admitted to me your an unbeliever…the bible says your not capable of understanding it because your spiritually discerned, ( 1 Cor 2: 12-14) sorry Jeff, I’m not going to bang my head against the wall arguing with an unbeliever. Put your faith in Jesus and get saved brother. Love ya

Hey BA,
How is it you call him “brother” and “unbeliever” in the same breath? Do you believe he is a fellow child of God, even in his unbelief?

Remember, when Thomas doubted, Jesus did not send him away.

Sonia

[Born_Again]

Sonia.

Not brother in Christ. Brother, in the figure of speech sense.

[JeffA]

But God forbid I get an answer to anything.

[Born_Again]

Jeff.

You can do what you want…your discernment of the scriptures is flawed and you cannot understand them without being born again. ( 1Cor 2:12-14)

[JeffA]

So what happened to your favourite ploy of ‘just read what it says’? Those 4 verses show plainly that God will do all his pleasure and that his pleasure is to reconcile all things in heaven and earth through the blood of his son on the cross.

Can you give me the real Christian’s discerned meaning of those 4 verses - show me how it means not everything in heaven and earth will be reconciled through Christ?

Also I think I have a right to have an answer to my non scriptural question concerning how you KNOW FOR A FACT that I PRETEND to not believe

[AUniversalist]

Studentoftheword.

If you have not noticed I have been having respectful discussions with Aaron, Sonia, Jim, and Tom. They do it in a respectful manner… unlike you.

Actually, you don’t treat them respectful but they, unlike myself, are far more patient with you.

[AUniversalist]

Jeffa.

For a guy that pretends to believe in nothing…you sure have a whole lot to say.

Jeff, I think BA has misunderstood Agnostic as Atheist, just demonstrating his level of comprehension as poor.

[JeffA]

Probably Craig,

But I’m not scrupulous in not interchanging them myself so sometimes I feel atheistic and other times agnostic - though mostly I just feel I don’t or can’t know enough to come down one way or the other

[AUniversalist]

Probably Craig,

But I’m not scrupulous in not interchanging them myself so sometimes I feel atheistic and other times agnostic - though mostly I just feel I don’t or can’t know enough to come down one way or the other

As you state, atheistic and agnostic are seperate and agnostic does not mean you don’t believe in nothing, it is that you have a healthy skepticism of your own knowledge understanding of if there is anything to believe. Atheists, on the other hand, do believe in nothing (concerning God is concerned).

[JeffA]

Craig,

It would have been quite easy for me (given my upbringing) to have pretended (to use a word of BA’s ) to be a Christian on these forums. But the very feelings of hypocrisy that led me to leave the church still operate; so I would rather be open about my inner feelings of doubt and, the fact that I find very many arguments against the existence of the Christian God convincing, means that to remain honest I must adhere to the agnostic tag.

However, UR (or whichever name variant we use) interests me greatly because I was brought up entirely in Born Again’s world and preached his message of hell and eternal damnation from the pulpit (people here possibly don’t know that I am in my early 50s). If I had met UR when I was still an active Christian who knows? There is still a chance that UR could persuade me back into a relationship with the Christian God. But I would be hesitant to declare that here because I have gone back to Christianity once before and then left a second time - and it certainly wouldn’t be to hellfire preaching.

So Born Again’s assertion that I have no right to argue from scripture because I have no spiritual discernment amuses me - am I an agnostic? or am I a backslidden Christian (he would probably quote Hebrews and the unpardonable sin to me I suspect)? Only God (should he exist) will know and certainly not Born Again.

[Born_Again]

Jeff.
You admitted to me to be an unbeliever. Unbelievers are not back-slidden Christians. Why let the hypocrisy of man get in the way of your relationship with God through Jesus? Don’t you see your allowing the Devil to put a wedge between your relationship with God? For we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, but the Devil and his demons.( Eph 6:12)

If your an unbeliever God says you are not capable of understanding spiritual things. The bible is a spiritual book. ( 1 Cor 2:14) Love ya Jeff.