If Universalism is true..Christianity is not


#1

If you truly believe in universalism…do you support reverse missionaries to go to dangerous places and tell people not to convert to Christianity or to any religion that might bring them harm. After all, if everyone is going to Heaven anyway, why should they suffer a moment longer because their faith differs from the predominant religion in their community?

Simply put, if Christianity is true, then universalism is not. If universalism is true, then Christianity is not. :unamused:


Definition of the Gospel
#2

Dagnabbit! - I’m not allowed to reply :frowning:


#3

Jeff.
Your sarcasm is noted. You can reply. :laughing:


#4

What is your concept of heaven, BA?


#5

Only joking :smiley:

I’ll let others reply first - let’s see what kinds of things they come up with :wink:


#6

Hey Dondi.

What does that have to do with this thread? Heaven is a place where unicorns run wild…saints lay in clouds and play their harps.LOL. Just kidding. My concept of Heaven Dondi would be described in Revelation Chapter 21 and 22.


#7

BA: If you truly believe in universalism…do you support reverse missionaries to go to dangerous places and tell people not to convert to Christianity or to any religion that might bring them harm. After all, if everyone is going to Heaven anyway, why should they suffer a moment longer because their faith differs from the predominant religion in their community? Simply put, if Christianity is true, then universalism is not. If universalism is true, then Christianity is not.

Tom: You gotta be kidding me BA. And you wanted to be taken seriously? This is what I’m talking about.

Had I not lost confidence in your sincerity, objectivity and ability to process sound arguments, I would have offered what I think is a very good answer to your question, especially given my commitment to missions (20+ years living and working in the Middle East among Muslims).

Hmmmm.

Tom


#8

Tom.
Why respond without giving your answer? If you don’t take me serious don’t bother responding. Tommy, I have been giving sound arguments from scripture from day 1.

Thanks Jeff for the correction. :laughing:


#9

Are you sure you didn’t mean ‘I have been givING sound arguments from scripture’ rather than I have been given…’?

Your last post implies that your opponents here have been the ones giving the sound scriptural arguments.


#10

Can’t not say a couple things! ;o)

Having spent over half my life outside the States as a missionary, passionate about sharing Christ with folks here in the Middle East, I admit that the relationship between the motivation/urgency of missions and universalism figured big-time into my own journey. I wasn’t about to give up on the present urgency and motivation for missions. That’s too clearly commanded by Christ and practiced by the early church. If universalism couldn’t account for these facts, I wasn’t touching it.

My objection early on was similar to BA’s. If everybody makes it in eventually, then what the heck am I dragging my family around third world countries, facing the particular threats and risks we did, and asking my children to forgo opportunities (specifically educational and cultural ones) they could take advantage of here in the State but not overseas? I mean, really, what was the point?

I first began to understand what I now fully appreciate about this a few years ago when my eldest daughter (then in university) came home and told me she wanted us to meet a guy she had been dating and was very interested in. She was so excited. (They’re getting married this May!) We made an appointment to have lunch with him in two weeks time. A day or two later she called and asked if we could move the appointment up. Why? Well, she was too excited to wait. He was a real catch and she thought it was unfortunate, even a waste, for us to go another day without meeting him and getting to know him the way she knew him. I was busy at the time and said, “Love, we’re gonna meet him eventually anyhow. It’s just two weeks away. What’s the rush?” “That’s two weeks you won’t know him, two weeks you won’t get to enjoy knowing him; I can’t stand it!” she replied.

That conversation just kept coming back to me. Eventually the Spirit (or maybe BA will suggest some demon) help me make the connection to my questions about the motivation/urgency of missions (on the one hand) and universalism’s claim that all eventually make it (on the other).

The reason universalists can believe in the present urgency of missions and happily sacrifice and risk their welfare to introduce Christ to people who don’t yet know him is because of the infinite worth and beauty of God. God’s worth is the motivation for mission. It’s not *primarily about fire insurance, BA. It’s about closing the gap between the God who deserves to be loved and worshipped and those whose present lives suffer the absence of God’s blessing and presence. Each day God is not loved and worshipped as he deserves is a crime that each of us ought to be prepared to suffer in order to rectify in spite of the fact that it will all be rectified eventually anyhow. Christ is just too worthy and deserving and too wonderful to know to let another day go by in which the universe is less than he desires it to be. It matters not that it’ll eventually be all he desires it to be. It’s about creation’s recognizing the worth and value of God.

You either see it or you don’t. If you don’t, whatever. Do you. But if you see it, well, perhaps miracles still occur. If you think universalism and Christianity can’t both be true, then don’t become a universalist. That’s easy. If you’re unable to agree that we’re true brothers and sisters in Christ as well, then thanks for visiting our site and good-bye.

Tom


#11

Then you ought to know that that God and His Son, the Lamb of God, is in the midst of heaven. John 17:3 tells us that eternal life is to know God and His Son, whom He sent. If you don’t have this, then you don’t have heaven.

God isn’t merely concerned with saving people from hell. I think that if our missionary efforts are soley geared toward this, which I find in many evangelical circles as the case, you miss the whole point of salvation. As mentioned elsewhere on the board, God is interested in saving us from our sins. And the way God is going to do that is by conforming us to the image of Christ through His Spirit and His Word (Romans 8:29). The initial salvation by grace is only the beginning of our complete redemption, spirit, soul, and body.

So insofar as missionary efforts go, it is our duty to share the gospel in order for those who do not know God and His Son to be introduced to their Savior, that they may enjoy the benefits of salvation and grow in the Lord, and spread the good news to others. to become the kind of people God wants us to be. Universalism in no way hinders that objective.

I myself went out this week to share the gospel with a lady who had a listening heart, and though she didn’t accept Christ right then and there, I know that the Lord has planted a seed in her heart and that His Word will not return void. God is a patient God.


#12

And what Tom said. :wink:


#13

The motivation is to get people to realise that they can partake of the life that comes from God right now - as soon as possible - as the payoff costs more and more in personal punishment and unhappiness the longer it is put off. If this isn’t the case there is no point at all in the phrase

The sooner you get reconciled the sooner you can lay up treasure in heaven and help rule in the kingdom instead of being ruled in the kingdom. The sole job of the saved person is to help usher everybody else into the kingdom.

Jesus told the pharisees that the tax collectors and prostitutes would enter the kingdom before them - they all enter it’s a matter of in what manner and with what rewards. I wonder how many Bible believing, demon casting, tongues uttering, evolution denying (sorry about that last one :blush: ) Christians will be stunned to find themselves at the back of the queue behind wretched dirty travesties of humanity.

(Please feel free to ignore parts of this post on which I am not qualified to pontificate - what do you mean that’s ALL of it!) :smiley:


#14

Speaking as someone who has spent years of my life composing and presenting thousands and maybe ten thousands of pages of evangelical apologetics for the purpose of helping people believe in the existence, characteristics, character and historical actions of God, so that they may learn to know, love and accept Him as Lord of their life, and to live and cooperate with Him every day of their lives, including in repentance to the salvation by God from their sins and from their sinning, that they may join with Him in fulfilling love and justice for all persons whoever they may be, and in opposing injustice and charity to their very life’s blood (if that’s what God calls them for)–and who suffers pain every hour of every day rather than that, by acting unjustly in regard to what I happen to most naturally want, I should betray God and also sin against those (the beloved of God) for whom God Himself voluntarily sacrifices His own life that they should have life and have so abundantly…

…I think I am allowed to say to this:

Piffle.

If universalism is true, then some hopeless version of Christianity is not true; I’ll grant you that.

But insofar as my studies, experience and faith are concerned–a faith worth giving my own life for; or, vastly more importantly (since my own faith is worth nothing by comparison), a faithful God worth giving my own life for: if orthodox trinitarian Christianity is true, then universalism is necessarily true. And if something other than universalism necessarily is true, then orthodox trinitarian Christianity is necessarily not true.

I would be lazy and uncharitable if I refused to work with God in evangelization. I would be selfish, unloving and unjust instead, to God and to other people whom God loves.

And we’re told pretty often in the Gospels by Jesus, what happens to lazy and uncharitable servants of His. :wink: (To say the least, they aren’t saved from God’s punishment so long as they insist on that.)

Admittedly, I’m somewhat confused at the moment as to how best to support missions beyond where I’m capable of reaching (by God’s grace); but that’s only because there is no solidly doctrinal organization of orthodox universalists at the moment. So it’s no different in principle from Baptists not helping Methodist mission outreaches much; or Methodists helping Roman Catholics; or RCCs helping Eastern Orthodox missions, etc. etc. Most mission outreaches aren’t interdenominational, for the practical reason that there are some substantially different doctrines being taught among various groups, and because we do all love and care about truth we all do believe those differences are important and so that X should be taught instead of Y in order to rightly represent God in our witness. (Though I wish there was more ecumenical cooperation between denominations in regard to missionwork where we do agree doctrinally. And I’m glad to see small steps being taken in that direction occasionally. :slight_smile: )

So, in lieu of that, I do what I can, and I encourage others to do what they can (including in teaching, anywhere I’m able to help with that), and I give a large (and hopefully an increasingly larger) share of my income financially to the poor for their needs. I do the best that I hear the Holy Spirit in my heart exhorting me to do, with Him; just like I fully expect most people who disagree with me on few or many doctrinal points also do. (Yourself included.)

Or, when I choose to do something else instead of walking according to as much of the light as I can see (by God’s grace), looking for more light thereby, then I am sinning. My penitence for which is between me and God, involving my submission to God’s authority, and God’s reconciliation of me (with Himself, and with anyone else I’ve sinned against), as He sees fit to do.

As to sending out “reverse missionaries” to tell people not to believe anything that might be uncomfortable for them or get them into trouble in any way–again, piffle. Though I wouldn’t mind sending out missionaries to the missionaries, to tell them it’s long past time to get their butts in gear proclaiming the love and the positive justice of our righteous and holy God (as well as to stop doing things like schisming the two natures of Christ or denying God’s omnipresence or schisming the Persons in their intentions or teaching that there is something equal to or even greater than God, or any number of non-trinitarian doctrines–not to say non-Biblical ones–I routinely hear them preaching, even when they know very well that they shouldn’t be doing so.)

Back to work elsewhere now for a while. Welcome to the forum, again. :slight_smile:


#15

Absolutely agree. :slight_smile:

Also, great testimony Tom. :smiley:


#16

Here is an article I wrote a while back concerning why missionaries and evangelists are necessary when universalism is true.

-----------------------------------------------------------ARTICLE-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to address a subject concerning those who have not known or heard the truth and could not accept or reject the knowledge of Jesus Christ for their salvation. This could be anyone from those living on a secluded island in the mid-pacific to infants who are ignorant of even the things of life. Even in our ‘Christian’ western world, there still remains many ignorant to the saving knowledge of Christ. The Lord impressed in my heart to see His creation the way He designed it. The difference between His goal and His plan. When I see someone acting out of ignorance, I see my heart grow with compassion toward them knowing that though they seem to be doing what is wrong, they are ignorant to the fact it is not right. Does this ignorance condemn them? Yes, for what they are doing is wrong, but do I forgive them? Yes, for they do not know what they are doing.

So what does Scripture say of the ignorant, what is their fate?

“When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.” (Leviticus 4:22)

“If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, he is guilty.” (Leviticus 4:27)

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge …” (Hosea 4:6)

“Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge …” (Isaiah 5:2)

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

All who do not know are condemned to die in their sins. We must not wait for them to die before they know the truth, we must go out and share the gospel to everyone who will listen. Now you may be asking yourself, “Who then can be saved?” Seeing that many perish in their ignorance.

"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentilethe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:10-13)

What about those who have not heard? How about those who do not know?

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Romans 10:14-15)

There is obviously those who have not heard, and those who have not been sent to them to hear. This is a fact and all who are ignorant are guilty of sin and those who have not trusted in the Lord are destroyed, held captive and condemned. This sounds horrible, indeed it does, even the disciples were astounded when Jesus spoke to them of who will be saved. Though the truth remains as Hosea had said, due to ignorance God’s people perish. So we have a duty and a calling to those who are perishing, to go out and share with them them the good news so they too may be saved.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 29:18-20)

“…but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

“He told them, ‘The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.’” (Luke 10:2)

As ambassadors of Christ, with the great commission in our hearts, we are obligated to be His witness to all the earth. Yet, despite all the work we do in the Name of Jesus, we have missed many. There is the people in the remotest part of the earth who did not hear, there are people who have not heard and will not believe and above all that the workers are few! How miserable we are to fail in our task, how much vanity do we strive and labour to bring the gospel to the far reaches of the earth. So do we just give up? Let it not be so, our hope anchored and secure, we should know without a shadow of a doubt, Jesus Christ is Savior of all mankind.

“This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” (1 Timothy 4:9,10)

So do not doubt and lose sight of that which is before us, let us come to our senses because while there is blood flowing through our veins. Let us not sin and become lazy but continue to do the good work set before us. There are still many who are ignorant of God and we have commission to complete. Do not listen to those who doubt, for they are double-minded and should not expect to see anything from the Lord; in all their ways they are unstable. Those who say, “Let us eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.” will die and take anyone who listens to them with them to the grave.

“So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.” (Hebrews 10:35-39)

Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of GodI say this to your shame. (1 Corinthians 15:34-35)

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.” (Hebrews 12:1-3)

What of the ones we cannot reach, what if they are unable to listen? With astonishment and bewilderment, beyond all expectations we gasp, “Who then can be saved?”

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:25,26 )

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10:26,27)

Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”(Luke 18:26)

There is one death that is common to all, that is natural death. It is destined for all once to die and then face judgment. Will there be any without excuse, will there be any who will stand before God and say, “I did not know.” With all authority in heaven and earth and that which is under the earth, I guarantee you all will know. None are without excuse. What is impossible for man is possible with God. In fact not only will they know, but they too will confess and be saved. As Romans 10:10-13 said, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” and everyone will. In the last days, He shall raise everyone from the dead and everyone will appear before Him.

Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. (Ezekiel 37:11-13)

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Habakkuk 2:14)

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4)

This is not some fantasy, or myth. This is the reality, all will know Him and all will confess His Name. It is the Will of God that all men to be be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth and what ever God wills, it shall be done. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God which delights in the truth and always enduring, preserving and never failing. None who stand before God are ignorant and those have been destroyed, captured or killed because of their ignorance shall be raised up from the dead and know that He is their Lord and Savior.

So what does Scripture say of the ignorant, what is their fate?

“When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.” (Leviticus 4:22)

The answer:

He shall burn all the fat on the altar as he burned the fat of the fellowship offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the man’s sin, and he will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:27)

“If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, he is guilty.” (Leviticus 4:27)

The answer:

He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:31)

It says that though through their ignorance they are guilty of sin and should die, they have a high priest who makes atonement for them and they are forgiven. They will be raised in the last day and be forgiven.

The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the gentiles living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.

'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. (Numbers 15:25-28)

It says though they are law breakers unintentionally, all of them will be forgiven by the priest who makes atonement before the Lord. Do we have such a priest? Do we have such a sacrifice?

"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. (Acts 3:17-19)

Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 5:1-3)

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (Hebrews 7:23-27)

Such a high priest meets our needone who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3)

He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thessalonians 5:10)

So continue fighting the good fight of faith, share the riches of God’s Kingdom with those who have an ear to hear. They do not need to be condemned to death not hearing the words that bring them salvation and healing. They do not need to wait until the second resurrection of the dead, but participate in the first resurrection of the dead. So for those who are ignorant and do not know, God is gentle with them and why he has offered His Son Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, whether they know it or not.

I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 1:12-13)

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. (Romans 11:29-31)

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

So in conclusion, there is none who will face God ignorant. Everyone shall witness, bow to, and confess the Name of Jesus and be saved. Let us not become lazy and hope that someone will come to them before they die, they can have eternal life now and all they need is the messenger whose feet are beautiful because he brings good news. So what are you doing sitting there reading this? Get out there and start sharing the good news!


#17

Christianity and Universalism can’t possibly both be true. So Gregory of Nyssa wasn’t a Christian.

Hahahahaha! :laughing: Oh boy. BA, you’re killing me.

T


#18

There is no way to relate to BA since he does not wish to relate but to correct, and doing so, as I said before, he is participating in many questions fallacy and either/or fallacies. By his reasoning, BA is not a Christian because no man knows 100% of the truth in order to be saved by it. To fail at any part of the requirements (which are artificial, by the way) is to fail at all of them. Such narrow judgment leads to understanding if a person is off by any degree, they are sent to perpetual hell.

BA must be a very afraid person, we should pray for him and his soul. I don’t find people coming to universalism to argue about it, unless it affected him personally and he sees some inkling of truth and is trying to find a reason to disprove it, any reason. Leaving one’s comfort zone, is a scary and fearful process.


#19

I rather doubt he’s all that afraid. :wink:

More likely, he’s trying to evangelize, seeing us as a mission field. I can sympathize with that. :slight_smile:

Consequently, by proportion I rather doubt he’s all that afraid. :wink: (Hey, a chiasm! :mrgreen: )

By which I mean: to the extent he has left his comfort zone to come here and do things, then in principle he has done something courageous despite fear–which should at least be appreciated. On the other hand, to any extent he has insulated himself in his comfort zone and not really ventured out (even by coming here), then while that might not be very laudable, a person doing that is not likely by proportion to be “very scared” either.

Tom: BA might say rather that Gregory of Nyssa was a theologically inconsistent Christian; which would parse well enough with this dichotomy claim. I myself think any non-universalist will end up tacitly or explicitly repudiating ortho-trin doctrines, but that doesn’t mean I believe non-universalists aren’t Christians (or even aren’t ortho-trin, in intention and maybe largely in practice elsewhere.)

I have of course run into Calvs and Arms who steadfastly refuse to believe universalists (or Kaths) are Christian regardless of any testimony the universalist might give; just like I run into Calvs and Arms who steadfastly refuse to believe each other are Christian. I don’t recall for sure if BA has gone that distance yet, but that doesn’t necessarily follow from what he stated he believes.


#20

Tom.
Like I said before…you are by far the best UR I have ever come across. Most UR are not like you. Wow. Thank you for sharing that wonderful insight of our wonderful God. I do consider you a brother in Christ. You are definitely born again. :smiley: Although, I do not agree with you about everyone getting saved in the end, but we do share the same passion for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I appreciate your mission work in the trenches trying to win souls to the Lord. God bless you and your family. :wink: