Simple question:
If UR is true, why is it such a minority belief?
If Christianity is true why are there more non-Christians than Christians?
If traditional, orthodox Christianity is true, then either:
a) God doesn’t want to save most of humanity (Calvinism); or
b) Most of humanity are either too lazy or too wicked or too feeble or too whatever to save themselves (Arminianism)
If UR is true, God is going to save everybody. So why is he doing such a bad job of it, in this life at least?
Bad news is always more credible.
Hello John
How very lovely to hear from you. You’re right, of course. As a race we are obsessed with bad news.
My problem, though, given all this talk about post mortem salvation and epistemic distance, is why God has created this world, with all its pain and misery, when he seemingly will “change the rules” in the afterlife. Why not change them now, I ask?
Johnny,
I fear that I too am mystified as to a satisfying answer to the question you pose. It seems to overlap the broader puzzle of why God should put humankind through ANY painful process of time, if God can and will ultimately reveal himself irrestistibly and instantly transform us into holiness. My old Calvinist prof (Daniel Fuller) could only surmise that experiencing this world´s time of travail as a contrast, would make eternity´s bliss shine brighter. Of course Arminians often point to the need for a period of voluntary decision (thus presently requiring epistemic distance).
John Hick classically argued that there was great worth in having us experience the sometimes painful process of growth into virtuous character, which he called ´soul making.´ My impression is that one must assume that a good God sees that SOME thing superior will be gained by putting us through the process of time that we endure. I´m just not confident that I know what that is. But at least I am lead to think (unlike Dan Fuller´s limited atonement) that some consolation is that the glory to yet be revealed and enjoyed by All persons will be out of proportion to their travail.
Okay, I can accept that. Doesn’t the writer to the Hebrews say something similar?
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:6-11 ESV)
What is much more troubling to my mind than God’s discipline of His children is the fact that God seldom does anything to prevent the many atrocities which are daily carried out in our world: torture and rape of little girls, mental torment through words of hate, and many other horrible deeds. I think I may have come up with at least a partial explanation. God has created man in His image, with a free will like Himself. He wants man to willingly submit to Him and become righteous. He would not be content with a race of robots who were forced to be good. In order that man might become what God wants, He must allow him to exercise his free will, and that includes the horrific results such as I have denoted above.
Are you asking why doesn’t God close the epistemic distance now like He will post mortem?
If so, then I’ve got to refer to Cosmic Warfare again.
God collapsed the distance as far as He could in Christ; on the cross He revealed the essential elements of Himself fully (God is love etc). It is by understanding the cross that we fall in love with God and are spiritually changed.
The problem here and now isn’t with God, who’s done what He can and whose Spirit works tirelessly with all to show them the cross, the problem is with us, satan and the environment. We are blinded and in the dark, corrupted and damaged. We need healing, rescuing and liberating.
Now, post mortem or at the eschaton the environment changes radically. God reveals the same old thing He’s been trying to reveal to us all these years (God is love, Jesus died for you), but it’s we who can see better, because there/then satan isn’t blinding us, sin isn’t blinding us, our flesh isn’t blinding us, the limitations of this corrupted world and our corrupted bodies isn’t blinding us etc etc
So, next obvious question, why doesn’t God sort out the environment? Answer: He’s trying His best. But remember, from a Cosmic Warfare + FWD + Open Theism perspective God works primarily by persuasion and participation with the other (us and angels) and the gift of freedom, and the consequences of our choices, are irrevocable. So He’s trying to change the environment, and will eventually change the environment (it’s guaranteed), through us, by us, in concert with us. Not to say that He can’t/won’t stage dramatic interventions when He can, but these dramatic interventions can only come at the appropriate time which is largely dictated by our actions (else why did He wait until the Roman occupation to send Jesus?).
Another follow up question might be why did He initially permit the corruption of the environment? And this is again answered by Open Theism + FWD … And I won’t repeat the answers I’ve given elsewhere for the non-necessity of sin here 
I think that’s a statement about humans, rather than one about God. After all there are a lot of people who think that computer virus checkers actually work.
A good discussion you started here, Johnny. (And your signature is a kick by the way 
)
Anyways, I think it gets back to that age old question of ‘why is there suffering and evil?’, which we’ve probably discussed here before about a million times or more, which isn’t a bad thing, since it’s a very, very important question.
We can’t help but think about it. It’s a huge question mark that casts a huge shadow, crying out for attention and an answer.
All of us have our ideas, our thoughts and feelings about this, and no doubt there is some truth to much of what has been written, thought and felt about ‘the problem of pain’, but even if we put all our heads together, we could never quite cover all of the bases, satisfy every possible question that might arise, let alone quiet every heart that cries out ‘why?’, including our own, when faced with great suffering or great evil. Philosophizing, after all, doesn’t make the pain go away. 
I was chatting with my friend Charles Slagle on the phone earlier tonight, and we touched on this.
I was bouncing some of my thoughts and feelings about it off Charlie, and one of the things I was thinking of was that, when it comes down to it, God seems to kind of deflect our questions about suffering and evil, or at least the ‘why?’ questions, and steers us towards seeking an answer to another equally important question: ‘How do we respond to suffering and evil?’
Charlie and I were talking about Jesus, and I was thinking of how Jesus was asked by some people about a couple of then current tragedies, and how Jesus responded:
Not the most comforting response if you ask me, though there is the implication there that such tragedies are not necessarily punishment for sin (all you blame-gaming televangelists out there, listen up ), which is encouraging, but what it amounts to I think is Jesus is saying ‘What about you? What will you do?’
Maybe a lot of us (myself included) need to change our minds or have our minds changed (which is what ‘repentance’ means from what I’ve heard, a change of mind) about suffering and evil, or else our lives will lose much of their meaning and purpose, which is a kind of perishing in itself.
Maybe seeking to deal with suffering and evil head on, both personally and globally, through love and through forgiveness, through understanding and through grace, and as best we can, is ultimately more important than trying to find answers as to ‘why?’ suffering and evil are such a huge part of our existence, and only asking ‘why?’ will never satisfy the deepest parts of us anyway.
Easier said than done I know, but it’s something for all of us to think about, if I’m making any sense.
I like this quote I ran across recently, from the late great Mister Rogers:
And that is an encouraging thought. And though sitting at this computer and doing nothing but typing and listening to music makes me feel mediocre in comparison to the Martin Luther Kings and Mother Teresas of the world, I try not to beat myself up too much, as it does no good, and anyways, we can all make a difference, even if it may only be in seemingly small ways, whether through encouraging words, or through simple acts of kindness, by singing happy birthday to someone or just being a friend, as we go about our up and down, in and out days…
No doubt, we all have missed many opportunities to help throughout our lives, but we shouldn’t sell ourselves so short, for God is still at work, even amidst our seeming mediocrity.
And another thought I had when talking with Charlie was about how Jesus wept at Lazarus’ tomb, before raising him.
To balance things out here, I think asking ‘why?’, and feeling sad or angry, confused or fearful, disillusioned or crazy, or whatever mix of emotions we may feel, in the face of suffering and/or evil, in the midst of pain, well, I think that’s okay, and there’s nothing wrong with it, and in fact, I believe that God shares in our pain, that God mourns with those who mourn, just as Jesus weeps with those who weep.
So there is no shame in wondering why, or feeling a whole wide range of emotions as we wonder why… but there is still no answer to that question that will satisfy everyone, let alone end all suffering and evil.
There is only that other question, which is ‘what about us? what will we do?’
How will be seek to alleviate suffering, to bring an end to evil?
What part will we play in making the world a better place?
And what will we do with our own suffering, with the evil that we have done and that has been done to us?
Will we learn from our pain and in turn seek to help others who are going through what we have gone through?
Will we learn from our mistakes, accept God’s forgiveness and forgive ourselves for our wrongdoing, and in turn forgive others for theirs, even for how they have wronged us?
Like most everyone here and in this world, I would like to know why.
I would like to know why there is so much pain in this world, why there is so much sorrow, so much tragedy and injustice and insanity and darkness that we can’t even begin to comprehend or process.
The weight of it all would drive any one of us mad if we had it all laid upon us.
But I don’t know why, and don’t believe I will found out why till I shuffle off this mortal coil, if I ever do find out.
Not even Jesus seemed to give any clear answers as to why.
But what he did do, at least according to what was written in the gospels, was challenge us to think about how we’d respond to such things, while he also let us know, not just through words but by example, through his own blood, sweat, and tears, that it’s okay to be sad or angry, confused or fearful, disillusioned or crazy, or whatever we may feel, as we try to understand what to us is so impossible to understand, and that even if when it may look or feel otherwise, the world is not alone, and we are not alone, because Jesus is with us, and because God is with us.
As it says in my signature quote, ‘the gospel is about our pain, and his love’.
That was something I heard in a dream once a few years ago, and I think there is truth in it.
I think it means that the good news is that the world’s pain, and that our pain, the pain of suffering and the pain of evil, is ultimately answered by love, by God’s love.
Love may not tell you why, but love will lead you and guide you, love will be with you, love can heal you and set you free, and you can trust a love that is unconditional and unfailing… and though that is not a complete answer, that is something, and, at least for now, I believe that is enough.
Not sure if this contributes to the discussion at all, but just thought I’d throw in my two cents.
Blessings to you
Matt
PS And to encourage those who are hurting at the moment:
Matthew 11:12
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
I agree this is a tough question, but i believe the quote above sheds some light on it. i don’t believe in cosmic warfare, sorry Pog…i believe humans war against God at every turn…twisting His good gifts into atrocities (such as Paidion has listed).
God made humanity: we twisted the gift and made sin.
God sent the law to train us: we turned it into legalism.
God sent the prophets to warn us: we killed them or cast them out in disbelief
God sent Christ: we crucified Him
God raised Him to life: we perverted the good news of just how powerful that work was
God gifted the apostles: we idolised them and turned their words of freedom into new laws
it keeps going like this.
but God is not a fool, and He knows what we do, and He plans for it…underneath all these actions and our perversions of His gifts, He has subverted our perversions and us.
We live in a day and age where to most of us, slavery is wrong. Racism is slowly but surely being overturned. Justice (though it cannot fully be encapsulated by law) is causing law to change again and again in the aim of upholding it. Equality for the genders is getting better. Education is available to more and more children.
We have MILES to go, but we have come miles…not because of our virtue, but because of God’s subversive training of us. He is clever…He knows what we’ll do, but He will have His way.
I think the truth of UR is another aspect of this. When Jesus died, reconciliation was offered to all, with the promise that one day all would partake. We pervert this gift by willfully mistranslating His words (i can accept that some early fathers that taught ECT might have got it wrong with the best intention, but to me it seems they idolised the Greek philosophers more than the Word, and used that as their hermaneutic…with all its pagan hopelessness)…and with this mistranslation, the core of the hope was buried…but not totally. And we are unearthing it now.
God’s marketing tactics are far more subtle than ours! and bad news is always more popular!
Excellent Post, Matt. you hit on something that is hard to put into words with that Mr Rogers quote.
God’s defeat of evil is in the helping of those hurt by evil…His servants are everywhere. Sometimes they don’t even know they are His servants…they outnumber the evil ones by vast numbers. God is in control, and even if we don’t all know it, He is the shining light of hope that tells us to keep going, keep helping, keep building the Kingdom.
And this is in no way hampered by what we think we believe…with our little minds, with their little perspectives.
‘Oh ye of little faith’, He says, and then He calms the storm.
also, i had a chat with a friend the other day on a slightly similar bent
he wanted God to just tell us OBJECTIVELY a couple of things so we could stop our totally nonproductive bickering and MOVE ON!
however, if He did…we’d find the next thing to bicker over, and we’d want the same objective answer. God can’t be giving us all the answers…we would learn nothing and become horrible moral tyrants, worse than the Pharisees.
i think the Tower of Babel trick is still in effect…God uses division to prevent us from building our towers, as they would become horrible things where truth was not lived but simply known and enforced. we’re bad enough when we THINK we’re right…imagine how bad we’d be if we KNEW we were right.
so is it any wonder that UR is a minority trend? we could become unsufferable if it was universally held. fighting the ECT crowd keeps us humble! or at least more so than if we were all smugly UR…
Thanks mate
I agree with your post above about God knowing what He’s doing, and that He’s clever in His subtlety.
A couple other things I was thinking out loud when talking with Charlie was that ‘there is a method to God’s madness’ and that we are all called to trust God’s heart, and that He knows what He’s doing, despite appearances to the contrary, and to join in what God is doing in the world in whatever way we can, to join in restoring the world and making it new, allow ourselves to be His ‘instruments of peace’.
It’s not easy, not by a long shot, but still, that’s what we’re called to. Are we willing to take a shot?
It’s a shot in the dark for sure, but I believe it’s a shot worth taking.
A good thought there.
And another thought is that some truths just can’t be fully received through the intellect alone… some truths just have to be experienced. I don’t know if that plays into the question of why life is the way it is, but it’s a thought.
Thanks for the excellent thoughts here, guys. I will try and respond to each of you later. But in the meantime, here’s a quick thought from me:
In Matthew 24, Jesus talks about the ‘end times’, and he says something really quite extraordinary. He says, “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold” (the KJV translation is the only one that does this statement true justice .
Essentially what Jesus is saying here is that many people will lose their faith, or perhaps never acquire faith in the first place, because of all the misery and suffering and wickedness in the world. I find that amazing. It’s almost like God is saying to us, yeah, I know the world can be a rotten place, and I understand if you find it hard to believe in a loving, omnipotent creator as a result. I don’t know about you guys but I find that tremendously comforting. I also believe it strongly supports UR.
So, not an answer to my own question, I know 
. But more food for thought …
That is a good thought bro
I think one of the most important things about trusting God, at least for me, is being able to believe that He actually understands how we feel, and fully appreciates how hard it can be for us to believe at all when we have so many questions about life and struggles in our lives.
Nice Yul Brynner pic, by the way
Matt,
Just a note of unusual appreciation for your balanced reflections, both the affirmations of positive insights, and the acknowledgement of our lack of a fully satisfying understanding.
Thanks for your honest reflections, Bob. The ‘contrast’ theory (also espoused by Martin Zender, as if that amounted to a hill of beans ) is a total non-starter for me. The idea that God puts us through a hell on earth simply to counterpoint the joy and beauty of heaven is almost more offensive than the idea that he is actually the author of evil.
I agree with you that there must be some good reason behind things being the way they are. And perhaps that reason must of necessity be impenetrable to finite, temporal human reason.
Cheers
Johnny
100% agree Paidion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts, IMHO . We are free to sin grievously, wickedly, horribly. And we do. But it seems this is the price of true freedom. I accept the philosophical argument without question. It’s just awfully hard to stick to one’s philosophical guns in the teeth of the extremes of human cruelty 
.
This is one reason why I find the Incarnation, and Jesus’ passion, so important. Jesus didn’t suffer and die as a punishment from God for our sins. But in doing so he showed that God shares our suffering willingly. If the atonement served no other purpose, that would be enough for me.