I'm leaving.... but...


#1

Everyone.

I will be taking a leave of absence from this board. I have enjoyed my discussions with you all. I respect the people who want me to leave and I will leave willingly. I only ask that I have the privilege to come back in the near future. I apologize to anyone that I have offended by what I believe. There are two people who get offended with the truth of God’s word. Religious demons and people who have Religious demons. God bless and don’t miss me, Tom. :wink:


Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?
#2

I’ll miss you Aaron.

But, I do have to inform you that saying that everyone who disagrees with you is under demonic influence is as absurd (and essentially the same argument as) the individuals who imply that they have some sort of spirit-filled special understanding of scripture that leads them to comfirm UR.


#3

I don’t think you have offended anyone BA but a couple weeks off might do everyone good. I hope you can find the time to just sit silently before Him and hear His thoughts on the matter of Hell.

as far as demons we all have them and seems they too will one day be transformed … transformation is the nature of the lake of fire and one day we will all learn to swim in that fair harbor. God is always Good and one of His many names is Ever Merciful Love.

see you around the corner, amigo


#4

Rain.

I did not imply that everyone who disagrees with me is under demonic influence…I said… Religious devils and people who have them get offended by the truth of the word of God.


#5

Wait a minute. You said that Universalism is heresy. Are you saying now that belief in that heresy is under the influence of the Holy Spirit? Some of us are apparently not being influenced by demons or religious devils in holding that heresy and disagreeing with you.

I haven’t met anyone here who is offended by the truth in the scriptures. Could you point them out?


#6

Hm. So that explains why you’re offended by universalism, then. And also offended by various people here (some of them sinless, by their own confession–who are you to doubt them?!) who have been giving you that truth of God’s word.

See? It would be grossly unctuous of me, and terribly unfair to you, for me to say that seriously. Both of which could easily be offensive to other persons (including yourself)–and not because you or those other persons have (much moreso are) religious devils.


#7

Ah… Is religious devil a contradiction in terms or an oxymoron or something? :mrgreen:


#8

Aaron37: I apologize to anyone that I have offended by what I believe.

Tom: Aaron (if you’re reading this now or in the hopefully distant future should you return), it’s never been about “what” you believe. It’s about “how” you believe it (and share it), “how” you engage other people. People who deeply disagree with UR could hang out here and have a great time, be respected by others, etc., and actually contribute to the rest…IF they know HOW to conduct themselves. (And by the way, I do agree with a statement you made very early on about how universalists are many times rude and condescending.)

But don’t apologize for ‘what’ you believe. If somebody here is offended by the ‘content’ of your beliefs, THEY have a problem, not you. You’re making a big mistake if you think it’s WHAT you believe that’s caused you problems here. It’s about HOW you engage others…apologize for that.

Tom


#9

And don’t forget the belittling and condescending attitude to the life experiences of others. Walk a mile in my shoes before criticising me as I have walked many, many miles in yours.

Even your eternally torturing God is portrayed as being present and empathetic to our suffering - sadly his zealous emmissaries never quite manage to display the Christ in any way whatsoever.


#10

I agree. I know of nobody here who was offended by what others believe except one, and that was BA himself.


#11

Aaron,
When you ready to seriously discuss scripture, then please take some time to have a real discussion with us. Too many people posted up to you and you simply don’t respond. This only proves that you don’t really care to learn anything except from those whom you surround yourself with. TGB said it perfectly well and I coulnd’t really add much to that.


#12

That was a leave of absence? More like a potty break.

T


#13

But Tom, you don’t understand! Aaron had a revelation that completely overturns all universalist interpretations of John 12:32 (i.e., that the word “men” is not in the original Greek manuscripts)!

If that’s not important enough to shorten an indefinite leave of absence to only a few hours, I don’t know what is.

:confused:


#14

Aaron.

It never was an indefinite leave. I held to a wrong interpretation myself. Auggy told me to come back when I wanted to seriously discuss the scriptures. I believe I have shown the true interpretation of what Jesus was originally teaching in John 12:32. If you disagree, please show me where my interpretation is wrong.


#15

LOL!

I was ROFL!!!


#16

Indeed; Tom has a rare gift :smiley:


#17

The “all” that Jesus will draw to himself as a result of giving his life on the Cross is the Greek adjective “pantas” (accusative, plural, masculine–i.e., human beings). But if not all human beings, pray tell what? If “all things” are in view (it would be neuter, not masculine, if the idea were to exclude human beings, but let’s go with Aaron37’s denial that it’s “all human beings”), just what “all things” are universally to be drawn to Christ as a result of his offered life on the Cross? Is Aaron37 a universalist with respect to inanimate objects? All non-human entities will be drawn but not all human entities?

The word “men” or “human beings” or “human persons” IS in the text, Aaron37. That’s what “all” (when masculine and plural) means in Greek. We can’t do that with just the word “all” in English. Too bad for English. But other languages CAN specify non-human or human agents with simply the use of the adjective, depending on its gender. Given the gender here, human persons IS the meaning. It’s not rocks, papers, and scissors that are being referred to as drawn to Christ.

You have to say what the “all” is. Just translating “I will draw all to myself,” is fine. But it begs the question, All what? Yes the verse is about the kind of death Jesus would die (if I’m “raised/exalted from the earth”), but “I will draw all to myself” is the consequence of his being raised. You have a statement in the form “IF X then Y.” If X happens, then I’ll do Y. You’re harping on X (If “I be raised”) as signifying crucifixion. No problem. But you leave Y hanging. “If I be lifted from the earth…” then…then what? Then “I will draw all unto myself.” All what? “All” can’t BE the crucifixion itself. It’s the OBJECT of the DRAWING which FOLLOWS as a result of Jesus giving his life. And it cannot be “all things” excluding human beings.

Why am I even trying? Somebody stop me!

Tom


#18

Tom.

“All” is describing the full wrath of God Jesus will endure for the sins of the world. Verse 31 is key to know what “all” is." The judgment of this world" In other words, the full wrath of God “the judgment of this world”… Jesus will endure.


#19

BA, I just knocked the crap out of your argument - take a look. Give it up. It was dead on the vine to begin with. If you come back with another ‘Revelation’, just make it a good one the next time.


#20

I’m going to move some of these replies over to that other thread (where they more properly belong), with a link pointing back in that direction. (As soon as I figure out how to do so and/or get some breakfast. :mrgreen: )