In All Likelihood George MacDonald Went to Hell


#1

Those who don’t believe God is vengeful and wrathful are the most aggressive and violent. For those who have faith in God are pacified under His promise:

This same God of the NT is the God of the OT as we see the context and background from which this is taken:

When you have faith in God there’s no reason to be violent. We Let go and Let the all powerful all glorious God handle our enemy. When we admit our nothingness before God we can bear being despised. The glory goes to God. We don’t mock God’s children (Calvinists) like George MacDonald did. For God says:

We love our enemies not bully them around like George MacDonald did. I don’t know how long George MacDonald has suffered under God’s wrath for after long lasting torment and destruction one is made new and brought into the kingdom but we know it’s a very long time. Ages unto the ages means a very long time. It’s more in line with the Buddhist concept of hell in the trillions of years. Of course George MacDonald could have repented before he died and didn’t enter the lake of fire. But all indications are that he didn’t. He had a passionate hatred towards God’s wrath and His children. He mocked Calvinists during his years. This kind and intensity of loathing is unhealthy.


#2

so what’s your excuse? :wink:


#3

For what?


#4

" We love our enemies not bully them around like George MacDonald did. I don’t know how long George MacDonald has suffered under God’s wrath for after long lasting torment and destruction one is made new and brought into the kingdom but we know it’s a very long time. Ages unto the ages means a very long time. It’s more in line with the Buddhist concept of hell in the trillions of years. Of course George MacDonald could have repented before he died and didn’t enter the lake of fire. But all indications are that he didn’t. He had a passionate hatred towards God’s wrath and His children. He mocked Calvinists during his years. This kind and intensity of loathing is unhealthy."

Michael, you seem to know nothing of GMac the man and his times. And for God’s sake, stop standing up for Calvinists who murdered Servetus, who had young girls burned as witches, and have written things like the Institutes that carry page after page after page of curses against enemies - well, what can I say? Either you are trolling us, or you don’t know GMac, who is beloved by many very good Christians, and there are a few Calvinists among Christians.

Do you want some biographies of GMac to read, and get some understanding on? Or is your vision of George in Hell just too tasty to let go of??

I"m right there with you a lot of the time, but this is a factual disagreement, not an opinion.


#5

I was just going by what John Piper says here:

As for Servetus and Calvin go to you tube and hear the true story on that by James White.


#6

Somehow can’t see George participating in this, for instance:

“Probably the most zealous man among all of these people was French reformator John Calvin. Before his arrival to the Geneve, local witch-trials always resulted in relatively mild punishments, such as financial penalties or expulsion from the city. In the years 1495 – 1531, less than one dozen of witches were executed burned at the stake in Geneve. However, after John Calvin had arrived, more than 500 people convicted of witchcraft were executed during a period of only two years. In contrast with other city councillors, he strictly insisted on burning all people even accused of witchcraft.” - historyrundown.com/were-witc … iddle-ages"

Ok, that number is probably high - Many sources put it at about 100, not the 500 mentioned. Still, these were murders.

Another source - there are many, this is history not speculation - etb-history-theology.blogspot.c … rs-in.html.

So is John C. enjoying his time with the Adversary in flames??

(I do not believe either of the gentlemen are in hell; whatever loving correction they want will be provided, and as sincere believers I’m sure I will learn much from them in the next Age.)


#7

*** Calvin did not have the authority in Geneva to arrest, torture, or execute anyone. Those were the decisions, not of Calvin or the church Consistory, but of the Council and of the Council of 200.***

History is not specific concerning the number of people who were executed in Geneva during Calvin’s time. Modern critics try to give the impression that the number was high and there was non-stop bloodshed as Calvin oversaw the wholesale elimination of anyone who opposed to him. But, this is simply not the case. According to Matthew Gross of ReformedAnswers.org

There is a number that is oft-repeated but rarely footnoted of 57 executions during 4 years “at the height of Calvin’s power”. I am unable to locate the source of this number, and a more moderate anti-Calvin source, Calvin: A Biography, by Bernard Cottret, puts the number at 38.
In considering these executions, it is important to note that Calvin never held any formal power outside the Church during his time in Geneva. The government of the church in Geneva was Presbyterian ?- it had a pastor and a consistory, or board of ruling elders. Contrary to popular portrayal, the government of the church was not the government of the city. The government of the city was called “the Council.” The consistory handled moral matters, and the maximum penalty it could impose was excommunication. However, for many years they could not even excommunicate someone without the prior approval of the Council. The maximum penalty that the Council could impose was death; however, even the Council’s decisions could be appealed to another body called “The Council of Two Hundred” – so named because it consisted of two hundred citizens of Geneva. Calvin himself was not a citizen of Geneva during the upheaval in Geneva, and thus was disqualified from voting, holding public office, or even serving on the Council of Two Hundred until very late in his life, and at least four years after he achieved “the height of his power” to which so many Calvin detractors refer. Thus, it is with this understanding, the understanding that Calvin held no formal secular power, and that any power he did have was subject to the review of two different citizen’s councils that we turn to the discussion of the executions in Geneva.

Of the 38 executions accounted for in Calvin: A Biography, by Bernard Cottret, Calvin himself writes about 23, and the justification given is that they spread the plague by witchcraft. This is often given as mocking proof that Calvin really must have been an ignorant tyrant – after all, we know that witchcraft isn’t real, etc. But if you read the primary source, the actual letter to Myconius of Basel (March 27, 1545), you see that witchcraft, if it was a charge, was in addition to the charge of committing other malicious acts:

“A conspiracy of men and women has lately been discovered, who, for the space of three years, had spread the plague through the city by what mischievous device I know not. After fifteen women have been burnt, some men have even been punished more severely, some have committed suicide in prison, and while twenty-five are still kept prisoners,?the conspirators do not cease, notwithstanding, to smear the door-locks of the dwelling-houses with their poisonous ointment. You see in the midst of what perils we are tossed about. The Lord hath hitherto preserved our dwelling, though it has more than once been attempted. It is well that we know ourselves to be under His care.”

When you read this quote, you see that these people were accused of actually trying to spread the plague, not by casting spells, but by smearing “the door-locks of the dwelling-houses with their poisonous ointment”. Once again this seems innocuous, but it is possible that their “ointment” was spreading the disease if it contained blood or bodily fluid from someone infected with the disease. Even if it didn’t work, the people putting the ointment on the door handles apparently thought it would. Thus, at the very least these inept bioterrorists would be guilty of what we call “conspiracy to commit murder”. This is in addition to the charge of witchcraft, itself a capital crime in the Old Testament, which Calvin thought was directly applicable in Geneva.

Of the other executions, several are named to be executions for serial adultery, also a capital crime in the Old Testament. Contrary to what is commonly implied, this was not a group of all women or all poor people who were executed. Among the executed was a prominent Genevese banker who went to his death proclaiming the justice of the judgment – Geneva did not discriminate on the basis of sex or class, as is often implied. It is debatable whether or not adultery should ever be or have been a capital offense. Many people who think that it should not be one today think that it should not have been a capital offense in ancient Israel either. Thus, they reject the Old Testament law as unjust even when it was originally given. This is an error we should be careful to avoid as we debate whether or not these executions were just.

So the bulk of the executions were for conspiracy to commit murder and for adultery. In addition to these, there was one girl who was executed for striking her mother – another capital crime in the Old Testament which could be, at least in ancient Israel, justly enforced by the penalty of death in certain instances. We are not told by history whether Calvin approved of this execution, but if he did, it was because he believed that it was the proper application of Old Testament law. Of the other executions, history has only given us details of two – the beheading of Jacques Gruet and the burning of Michael Servetus. Gruet was executed for heresy and sedition. He attached an anonymous note to Calvin’s pulpit threatening to kill Calvin and overthrow the government of Geneva if they did not flee the city. He was arrested, tortured for 30 days, and, upon confession, beheaded. History does not tell us whether Calvin approved of the torture; if he did he was wrong to do so. The execution, for conspiring to overthrow the government, may have been justified given the danger to the citizenry that such a conspiracy entailed. Either way,*** Calvin did not have the authority in Geneva to arrest, torture, or execute anyone. Those were the decisions, not of Calvin or the church Consistory, but of the Council and of the Council of 200.***

salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/john-calvin-a-murderer/

Whatever a person may be like, we must still love them because we love God. ~~ John Calvin

Humility is the beginning of true intelligence. ~~ John Calvin

Assuredly there is but one way in which to achieve what is not merely difficult but utterly against human nature: to love those who hate us, to repay their evil deeds with benefits, to return blessings for reproaches. It is that we remember not to consider men’s evil intention but to look upon the image of God in them, which cancels and effaces their transgressions, and with its beauty and dignity allures us to love and embrace them.~~John Calvin


#8

Didn’t C.S Lewis refer to George MacDonald as his master or mentor?


#9

I think I’m missing something here. Didn’t George MacDonald start McDonalds :question: Or at least was a blood line, of one of the founders :question: :laughing:


#10

What a dumb thread. Looks like STM is back to posting his usual garbage.


#11

Yeah, Michael seems to be off his meds and/or trolling for attention again.

As the rest of us know, MacD didn’t deny the wrath and vengeance of God, he affirmed it. He denied the particular application of God’s wrath represented by Edwards, and he denied and opposed Calv explications for that type of wrath. So even if simply denying the wrath of God got someone thrown into the wrath of God, MacDonald would be fine.


#12

Neatly put.


#13

From MacD’s written sermon on the Voice of Job:

If MacD affirms that God may punish someone speechlessly worse than what we call hell, then it’s insane or dirt-ignorant to claim he’s denying God’s wrath and vengeance. He could easily be affirming God’s wrath and vengeance while denying that God would or could ever punish anyone as much as what we call hell; but he goes beyond the distance instead.

That took me less than a second to recall from memory, and about three minutes to wordsearch for. (I could have simply stopped with the first of his Unspoken Sermons, and called it a day, but I was looking for this specific quote since it hits the maximum.)


#14

:exclamation:


#15

Sorry guys but you do not mock and verbally abuse God’s children like MacDonald did. Nothing rankles God Almighty more than the abuse of His children. When you mock God’s children God mocks you. I’m thinking just fine and clear and I’m not trolling. God says "Vengeance is Mine I will repay, rather love your enemy.


#16

STM’s MO is dogmatically latching onto an idea and then running with it for a while. It looks like his latest dogma of the week is that people will be punished for trillions of years.


#17

No qaz I agree with the enlightened Buddhists who say trillions of years even longer and the Bible when it says ages unto the ages. Of course, the Buddhists don’t believe in God but they do believe in karma.


#18

Yup, just another episode of your baseless dogma of the week. You need psychological help.


#19

You’re projecting qaz.


#20

This thread bought back to memory, a scene from Pulp Fiction. :wink: