The Evangelical Universalist Forum

In All Likelihood George MacDonald Went to Hell

Practices Christian Living
#132

And I’m sure you will find Protestants, who also believe this. But It’s NOT an OFFICIAL position, of either the RC or EO churches.

I think we should be focused on positive thoughts…Like we find in the TV evangelist Joel Osteen. Who always begins his program - with a joke. And I heard a great one - on the BBC news.

2 former Star Trek series actors were talking. And the date was May 4. So the one asked:

What’s today’s date?

The other actor said:

May the fourth.

To which the first actor replied:

Be with you.

#133

What leads you to this conclusion?

Over the years I’ve come across some RC articles & forum posts that take the view that the official RCC position is that there is a hell which will be populated by human beings who will suffer there forever. For example:

"To put things in simple common sense terms, everyone knows that the Catholic Church and the wider traditional Christian Church has always taught that there is a heaven and there is a hell. Ignoring the theological glosses - limbo and purgatory - Christian and Catholic teaching has been clear that upon death, some men will go to heaven, where they will dwell with God forever, and some men will go to hell, where they will dwell with Satan and the other damned, forever. This teaching is firmly based on the words of our Lord in the Bible. Open it up to any place where hell is mentioned, and you will find Jesus stating it, always in strong terms."http://mahoundsparadise.blogspot.ca/2017/07/pope-francis-appoints-universalist-all.html

"The Council of Florence defined the traditional teaching in 1442, making use of the strong words of Augustine’s disciple, Fulgentius of Ruspe ( 468-533):

" “The holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and proclaims that none of those who are outside the Catholic Church-not only pagans, but Jews also, heretics and schismatics-can have part in eternal life, but will go into eternal fire, ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’, unless they are gathered into that Church before the end of life.” http://archive.churchsociety.org/churchman/documents/Cman_095_4_Fairhurst.pdf
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

"123. The Council of Trent spoke once of fear of hell as a motive for imperfect contrition, but offered no account of hell and the punishment of eternal loss.136 The Catechism of the Council of Trent, however, made hell a part of its instruction on two articles of the Apostles’ Creed. First, to clarify Christ’s descent into hell, the Catechism states that what is properly called “hell” is not the temporary dwelling of the pre-Christian righteous, to which Christ descended, but is instead "that most loathsome and dark prison in which the souls of the damned are tormented with the unclean spirits in eternal and inextinguishable fire.“137”

“124. Then, in its account of Christ’s return to judge the living and the dead, the Catechism dwells on the sentence with which Christ the Judge, according to Mt. 25:41, will condemn the wicked who refused mercy to the needy. Their heaviest punishment comes from being told, “Depart from me,” to suffer an eternal pain of loss in banishment from the sight of God. Being relegated to “eternal fire” indicates the sense of pain that they will suffer without end. Then, the punishment of hell was “prepared for the devil and his angels,” showing that the lost lack kindly companionship since they are forever with wicked demons.138”
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

#134

The subtopic I am referring to, is that Judas is DEFINITIVELY in hell. Which is something that neither the RC NOR EO churches - officially teaches. TECHNICALLY, he committed suicide. And there different RC, EO and Protestant opinions - on the matter of suicide. And “technically”, Judas was a Christian…

As far as hell goes, it is a teaching of the RC, EO and Protestant churches. UNFORTUNATELY, ECT is the prevailing viewpoint .

#135

Well Origen, I don’t think there’s any Sciptural evidence that ANY human being is in Hell yet (or indeed in Heaven either for that matter) Indeed, the apostle Paul wrote:

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (1Co 15:32)

Clearly, Paul seems to have been saying that without the future resurrection, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry—get as much out of this life as possible because there would be nothing more.

Indeed, earlier in the chapter, he indicates that if there is no resurrection,

Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (vs 18,19)

But how about AFTER the resurrection takes place? Won’t there be many who go to Hell then? Undoubtedly.
But another VERY early catholic, Origen (185-254 A.D.) believed it to be not a place or condition of eternal punishment but a place or condition of correction:

…God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician…the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health… —De Principiis II.x.6

The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached… —De Principiis III.vi.6

#136

It seems some Catholics are of the opinion that the RCC teaches he is in “hell” & will stay there suffering forever and ever. For example:

https://novusordowatch.org/2017/11/francis-this-pope-heretic-judas-iscariot-saved/

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=393943

I wonder if opinion polls would reveal that hopeful universalism is the prevailing view.

#137

Groups such as JW’s, Christadelphians, 7th Day Adventists, etc, & some annihilationists i’ve encountered on forums believe in “soul sleep”, whereas the historic Christian church has rejected the “soul sleep” viewpoint.

Both sides present many verses allegedly supporting their POV re how they harmonize the Scriptures on this topic.

Following is a site that offers verses in favor of the majority historic Christian teaching & how to explain passages such as those you’ve presented: https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2007/10/26/soul-sleep-a-refutation/

--The Afterlife--
#138

Did I say anything about “soul sleep”? I don’t even believe in “souls” in the Greek sense of the word—as some immaterial essence that can exist apart from the human body.

In the Old Testament,the word translated as “soul” means “being.” In the New Testament, the word translated as “soul” means “self.”

#139

How does your POV differ from the “soul sleep” perspective? Your 2nd sentence above, & several other comments of yours i’ve read on these forums, align perfectly with the “soul sleep” viewpoint. https://carm.org/soul-sleep
https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

If people who die don’t go to heaven, hell, paradise or Hades, where do they go? Nowhere? Do they become nonexistent? Do they go into oblivion, until a recreation from the mind of God? Are they nothing until God makes them again from the earth like He created Adam? Do they have no awareness or consciousness, no thoughts or feelings, no actions or choices, until their resurrection?

#140

In the Native American spiritual viewpoint, the world is populated by spirits. In the book The Pipe and Christ: A Christian-Sioux Dialogue …which is a dialogue between Roman Catholic theologians and Lakota medicine men…the Roman Catholic author talks about spirits of heaven, hell and the earth. And contemporary Old Catholic Church mystic Tiffany Snow, also had visions of spirits.

I also hung out for years, with medicine men and women…of the Two Feathers Medicine Clan. They were under the leadership of Duke Big Feather. But they disbanded, after his passing. And there’s only one local Lokota area person - still holding sweat lodges.

These days, I pass my time in:

  • Attending a conservative Anglican church and incorporating Eastern Orthodox theological elements.

  • Engaging in silent Buddhist and Yogia, meditation and contemplation methods…in the spirit of the Franciscans.

  • Hanging out with energy healing groups, that don’t charge and are God centric

  • Trying to “sell” the Zombie Apocalypse, as the most probable - end times, tribulation model.

  • Deepening and studying, the popular romance languages and Japanese.

#141

EXACTLY! When you’re dead, you’re dead.

They go into oblivion, but they are not “recreated”; they will be resurrected at the last day as Jesus taught.

God doesn’t “make them again”; He raises them from death.

Of course not. How could they? They won’t live again until their resurrection.

#142

How will this “resurrection” differ from the way Adam was created?

Will those humans who are cast into the LOF die a second death like their previous death?

#143

No. There is a great difference between the natural body and the resurrection body as Paul clearly wrote in
1 Corinthians 15—as different as a grain of wheat is different from the fully developed wheat plant.

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

#144

so Don, if one of my grandsons asks ‘is there a heaven’ what would be your reply?

#145

My reply:
Yes, there is a heaven, but very little is said about it in the Bible.
However, some day all who have died will be made alive once more, and will never die again.

#146

I like it. :grinning:

#147

And since heaven and earth, will be joined together. It might also be in part - a place on earth. :smile:

#149

I provide a link to ‘Justice’. I’m not sure if he mentions Calvinism by name, but he pretty thoroughly goes over all the 5 points in this essay. from http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-macdonald-on-penal-substitution.html
A snippet:
The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the consequences of our sins, is a false, mean, low notion. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the smallest tendency or leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into the pure air of God’s ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is,–that is, as God sees it, for God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and skulk there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins."
And:
" MacDonald was reared in Calvinism but came to reject the doctrines. He writes:

[T]he notion that a creature born imperfect, nay, born with impulses to evil not of his own generating, and which he could not help having, a creature to whom the true face of God was never presented, and by whom it never could have been seen, should be thus condemned, is as loathsome a lie against God as could find place in heart too undeveloped to understand what justice is, and too low to look up into the face of Jesus. It never in truth found place in any heart, though in many a pettifogging brain. There is but one thing lower than deliberately to believe such a lie, and that is to worship the God of whom it is believed (“Justice,” in Unspoken Sermons , Part 3).

In the sermon “Justice,” cited above, MacDonald lays out his objections to the penal substitutionary theory (PST) of the atonement. He describes the doctrine:"

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/macdonald/unspoken3.viii.html

#151


The truths expressed above are little known throughout Christendom.

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#152

Paidion to DaveB2.0.

To which I add, to his commentary!

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#153

What does that say about the Love of God Omnipotent? Does it have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Paul says,
“I’m convinced that nothing can separate us from God’s love in Christ Jesus our Lord: not DEATH or life, not angels or rulers, not present things or future things, not powers or height or depth, or any other thing that is created.”

So, as Clement of Alexandria says, “we can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life.”

IF death can separate someone from God’s love forever, then Paul deceived us, but I’m as convinced as Paul.

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