The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Income Inequality is a growing issue & increases suffering

Practices Christian Living
#1

This short videoclip shows just how bad Income Inequality has become:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
This short video shows the wide range of negatives effects of Income Inequality:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFOEe6M2VT4

America is one of the worst countries in this regard, but it’s also a significant problem right around the world:
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcaa2f7f8b9a0726e30400/image.jpg
(And this is only the developed world - if we factored in the 3rd world the situation is even worse :frowning: )

#2

It’s also worth watching this 5 min TED talk (ironically it got banned :unamused: ) debunking the myth that the rich create jobs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI

#3

Thankfully, it’s not all doom & gloom, here’s an excellent example of some of the 1% being a real blessing:

#4

Just to clarify, I think all 100% should be trying to help - it’s just if the 1% invested 1% of their income in the poor, it would be 1000(?) times more effective than me investing 10% of my income in the poor… so if I want to be effective, yes I should invest 10% but I should also encourage the 1% to at least invest 1%. I think both are part of loving others and part of promoting the Gospel.

#5

thanks for posting this, Alex. i’ll try to watch when i have time.

i think some people in the church, and in these wealthy countries, want to bury their heads in the sand over this issue, which is bad…as Jesus specifically raised this issue Himself, and threatened people with being separated from the righteous over this. fixing this is part of building the Kingdom of God.

i don’t think i myself do enough, frankly… :frowning:

#6

No probs :slight_smile:

I agree. I think the problem is compounded when people openly (or secretly) believe rich people are more blessed by God therefore God loves them more, or conversely poor people aren’t blessed by God therefore God doesn’t love them as much :neutral_face: (I’d even tentatively suggest that it’s possibly also linked to other theological systems where God only loves some enough to save them - if God’s happy for some to eternally suffer even more than the poor do now, suffering isn’t that big a deal to Him :confused: ) I suspect this is related to one of the statistics mentioned in the 2nd video, that higher Income Inequality countries are much more likely to have the death penalty (& other forms of retributive justice, as opposed to restorative/remedial justice).

It’s difficult - I was reflecting on this recently - there seems to be 3 challenges, and while most are able to overcome one, it’s very difficult to overcome all 3 simultaneously:
]Develop empathy/compassion/]
]Figure out what’s best for the person in the longterm (ideally including consultation with them, as they usually understand their needs more than you do) but consider now too/]
]Resource the action - either through rationing limited existing resources or through fundraising/]

#7

I can’t watch this now as I’m in a coffee shop (and should be writing something other than here – temptation!) but my admittedly limited experience tells me this is a mixed bag. One HUGE problem in America is the malaise of the work ethic. Many American youth feel they should spend their lives doing what pleases them. They consider it incredible bondage to have to work. This does NOT apply to all, but it absolutely applies to many, many, many. Naturally this attitude contributes to poverty not only among the generational poor, but also among the children of the middle class. I’m not sure what the answer might be.

This evening I’ll participate in a group called Life INC in which people who haven’t had the chance to learn basic living skills come to classes and earn rewards for completing their homework (things like budgeting projects, writing shopping lists, making out a resume’, etc.). It’s a great program and offers an opportunity for people who want to, to climb out of poverty. What I see with many, though, is the idea that as long as they’re getting by and have shelter, clothing and food, they don’t feel any need to rise above that. The fact that the majority of their income (for most) comes from the Federal welfare program doesn’t seem unacceptable to them. Many are contented to live this way, in poverty and lack but with enough to survive, for their whole lives.

Naturally, this isn’t sustainable. As the children of the middle class choose to join the ranks of those receiving public assistance (because they feel it is demeaning to do work that doesn’t interest them or, more problimatically, to go to work if they don’t feel like it that day) there are fewer and fewer workers to support those who cannot work – let alone the huge mass of people who prefer not to work. Living on public assistance has become an acceptable lifestyle in our society. There’s no shame attached to the lifestyle of dependency. For those who aren’t ABLE to care for themselves and their families, this is one thing. For those who COULD, but prefer NOT to care for themselves and their families, there should be shame but they are shameless.

Beyond that, yes; there is a balance. People who work hard deserve to bring home a living wage and not to have to hand over so much of it to the government that they still can’t make the rent despite long working hours. Over half of the people in the USA pay NO taxes, though. Of those who work but pay no taxes, most will receive a check from the IRS as an incentive to continue working. That’s fine, but there’s a limit as to how many people the rest of us can support. Eventually the whole thing will come crashing down around our ears.

#8

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - those issues are certainly very problematic too - not sure of complete solution but groups like Life INC certainly seem to be part of the answer. I guess each step up has to be achievable e.g. if I feel that no matter how hard I work, I’ll never be able to afford to buy my own house (because house prices are so high), I’ll simply give up.

Another thing might be to find ways of inspiring people apart from money e.g. I think landing people on the moon inspired many people to do science & engineering.

More strengths based learning rather than being overly generalist might help e.g. after learning basic maths, literacy, logic & problem solving, rather than force everyone to then learn things most won’t reuse, enjoy or excel at, let them become apprentices in fields they are good at, because then they might be more motivated? (see ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_t … ation.html)

#9

Good points all, Alex. I’m eager to listen to the videos you posted; it will have to wait until I’m home alone. :wink: Hubby is watching something now and we don’t have that much band width. I’m very interested in ministry to the poor and in how it can best be done without hurting the poor more than we already have done. :frowning: The idea is to HELP people, but a lot of the poverty relief programs we’ve implemented have only made things worse. It’s a thing we need to consider carefully.

Tonight one of the ladies in the class shared a little bit of her story. She’s an older lady caring for six to eight grandchildren alone and with very little help. People like her do need a check and no mistake about it. Not JUST a check, but yes; she needs and deserves public assistance. Others, not so much. It’s such a complex problem. Jesus said that we would always have the poor with us. In His day the poor were poor because societally they could not rise above that – or if they could rise above it, it wasn’t happening without a lot of luck AND much long, hard work. It’s still hard today, but today many of the poor here in the states are poor because of other reasons. They need help too, but they need the help (whatever that is) that will actually help them.

Love, Cindy

#10

Just as a matter of interest, who here owns their own business and who works for someone else?

It seems to me that we should be looking at what moral impact welfare has on a society. Does it make people more grateful? In The USSR there were many things the state would not allow the Church to do because they were afraid the Church would win the hearts of the people. They wanted everyone to think that they needed nothing more than the state. I wonder how many people would say that we don’t need the church today because the government takes care of things? The more the government takes care of things the more moral problems society seems to have.

As Christians, what is the best way to help those in need without undermining the Christian influence in society?

I do agree that some get paid way too much. I think we need to have a maximum wage for executives.

#11

it really is difficult coming up with a balance between the freedom capitalism can offer (at its best) and the micromanagement and lack of independent freedom socialism can offer (at its worst).

of course, it’s possible for Christ’s love to smash through all of this…and make millionaires more loving, and help them know how to effectively help the poor…and bring the poor comfort and hope and the confidence to strike out and better their circumstances…both things happening at the same time could level things quite a lot.

but there are good reasons for welfare as a safety net, as not all rich people will be so kind, and not all poor people would accept that help…and not all are able to better their circumstances for a variety of reasons.

i prefer a kind system that helps people…our system in the UK is being overhauled, but not in a nice way. it’s treating poor people like scroungers…which most are not.

i don’t know if any country has “got it right” yet…it’s complicated, as people are wealthy and poor for a huge variety of reasons, some very legitimate, some less so…

i think for myself, making the time to engage with people and buy them a meal while also giving to charities may be the way forward…

#12

I own my own business & work from someone else.

Some people I’ve met are extremely grateful for it (as was I when I was at uni), some people are extremely ungrateful for it…

I think that’s a fair point to consider. However, if a society only is only 1% Christian, there’s no way that they can care for all the welfare needs of a society - particularly an ageing one. Therefore I think there needs to be both - allow churches to participate however they like, but also have some secular welfare too (after all, the Rom 13:1-7, 1Pet 2:13-17 seem to imply that governments are part of the way God rules & cares for people).

I think there are many ways.

I agree.

I think pure neither pure capitalism, nor pure socialism, is ideal, but something that tries to mix the best of both (& avoid the worst of both).

I agree.

I agree.

I agree - sorry to hear that :neutral_face:

I agree, although think some are closer than others :slight_smile:

I think that’s a healthy mix.

#13

I have to just chime in here with my observation of those on welfare in the United States, since I did work with them for a number of years. It sure seemed like so many of the people didn’t have the tools to keep work and move up. Quite a few were dealing with homelessness, domestic violence, drug addiction…really sad stuff. A lot of the people were up against it - no support system, no transportation. I was always scared to think of ever being in their position. A lot of my co-workers talked poorly of the people, but the truth is they’d never walked a day in their shoes, nor would they want to. I think the system could’ve been better at times, like not forcing a person to quit their job so they could qualify for help with child care. In general, I loved the programs in place to help people get off drugs, get counseling, and find work. Welfare checks are so small. There are so many Christians that badmouth those on welfare and it’s high on my list of pet peeves.

#14

Thanks Amy, I love hearing feedback from those “on the ground”. I think holistic rehabilitation programs are definitely needed in conjunction to cash handouts, because as you say, often the tools/doors aren’t there for them. I agree it’s easy to slip into thinking we’re better than them but I think it’s something Christians, in particular, shouldn’t do :blush:

#15

this is a bit contraversial, but i personally think it would help.

make drugs legal.

i think that if they did this, they could provide and thus regulate and tax drugs…they could even experiment to mitigate some of the worst effects. also, they could provide help for people who have trouble and ACCURATE information for those that are curious.

Holland seems to be doing quite well with their marijauna legalisation, for example.

there’s a difference between “hard” drugs and marijuana, obviously, but education of users plus some good science going into it could help as i say above.

the reasons this is contraversial are obvious. some Christians, maybe even on this site, would feel better if alcohol or nicotine were also banned.

personally, that isn’t my position. i think people ought to have informed choice about what they put into their bodies…and that the freedom to do unhealthy stuff can be important (if i’m down, chocolate helps, for example…and though there are good things in chocolate…that’s a fair dose of sugar!).

my belief is that banning things, like censorship, simply drives problems underground. letting things remain in the open means we’re all aware…and we can act appropriately with that knowledge. i feel that this has a real knock-on affect for many people in poverty (to bring this back on topic), as many turn to these things to cope with a difficult life. the fact it eventually makes life MORE difficult is lost on people in deep depression etc, who just want to ease the pain.

these people then fall through the cracks. due to their problems, they may become criminals…or may develop mental illnesses that impede their ability to function at all in society.

they also finance people who make their money through organised crime. these people are hard/impossible to police…but would have a huge dent in their profits if drugs became legal in regulated situations where people could freely get their fix and could rely on it being quality, not cut with various things.

if we removed the infrastructure that ironically protected organised crime that preys on people in poverty while forcing users to fall through the cracks…we might be able to tackle some of these problems.

i’m not saying we leave them with bad drug dependancies…but i’m saying we stop criminalising them.
this does seem to be helping in countries where they’ve removed drug controls…
given how much money is wasted trying to fight the “war on drugs”, and how much they could make if they got into the business…it seems madness.

then a large chunk of poor people could also get the help they need to fix their circumstances…

#16

Amy, you are SO right. If we could fix the problem by throwing money at it, that would be GREAT. Throw in a lot of money; problem fixed; no more pain for the broken ones who are broken (most of them) not because of any fault of their own, but largely due to the circumstances thrust on them by life. The “fix” requires MUCH from all of us but most of all, much from the persons themselves in need. Receiving and taking any true advantage of help is at LEAST as difficult as offering and providing help – doubtless it is much more difficult.

THIS is the reason that NOTHING we can do will ever solve this problem short of the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea. We must all of us do all we can to minister materially, educationally, as a community, and most, most, most important of all, spiritually, to one another, including to the poor. This is our duty as we wait (and help to bring) the coming of our Lord.

#17

I’ve discussed this with social workers before. Places like Portugal, claim it’s very effective. While it goes against my instincts, if thorough, scientific, longterm studies showed the outcomes were definitely far better, I’d consider supporting it…

One hears this often, but when I looked into marijuana (a friend was starting to take it & I was concerned), I found it can have all sorts of nasty mental health effects (e.g. anxiety, depression, symptoms similar to schizophrenia) - and because it’s fat soluble it effects people longer than alcohol (e.g. the person who drives the next day will still have it in their system) :neutral_face: Anyway, I agree better education & research into it is needed.

I know alcohol in Australia is the number 1 cause of violence, so obviously I wish something could be done to reduce the problem - I think self regulation isn’t working at the moment because there’s a culture of “getting drunk is cool” :frowning: Nicotine causes a lot of suffering too, it drains the pockets of the addicted & causes all sorts of health issues, including death. A huge amount of money has been put into educating the people & I think that has helped, but it’s still a problem.

I think that’s the ideal but still suspect there needs to be some limits.

I agree it’s a very complex issue.

#18

“Richest 300 people have the same wealth as the poorest 3,000,000,000”!! A striking/disturbing visual presentation of the GLOBAL (not just the US) wealth inequality (thanks to Robin Parry for sharing it on his blog):