The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Infinite Glory

After thinking it over I’m going back to Calvinism. I hold that hell is eternal but not everyone recieves the same intensity of punishment. The problem is that people think God owes sinners grace. But He dosn’t. This goes against the very meaning of grace. If He chooses to actively save some and pass over the rest by giving them over to their own sinful hearts, then He does nothing wrong. One group gets justice, the other group gets grace. No one gets injustice. In the end God is glorified by both justice and grace. Neither does this make God egotistical. Pride is loving and thinking of yourself more highly than you ought to. God doesn’t do this. His loving and thinking of Himself is direct proportion to who He is - the most glorious of all beings. He glorifies Himself for the joy of His people. As Jonathan Edwards puts it:

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, all the parts of His glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all…Thus it is necessary, that God’s aweful majesty, His authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of His goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in His providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever He bestowed, His goodness would not be so much prized and admired…So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which He made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of His love. And if the knowledge of Him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect.

God permits evil and suffering. He’s not the direct cause of it. Moreover, hell is not torture but justice. Everyone recieves a different degree of punishment. People in heaven don’t rejoice at seeing the suffering of people in hell but in seeing God’s perfect justice. In one sense it doesn’t please God that the wicked perish. But in another sense it does please Him that justice is executed.

Well, placing your trust in God to save you from your sins through the sacrifice of Christ is more important than which soteriology you decide is correct; so if you’re going back to doing that, I’m happy for you anyway. :smiley: And if we were able to help even a little with that, then I’m glad we were able to do so.

As a trinitarian theist, I’m also happy (along with the rest of the leadership here) if you’ve come to believe in the Trinity again as well, which I suppose you mean to include by going back to Calvinism per se. Not everyone else here will be, but they have their reasons (or think they do) and it’s still because they care about whether or not you are worshiping who-or-Who you are truly supposed to be worshiping.

We have a few very high-class Calvinist guest members here, all of whom I think I can say are friends of mine (unless I am missing one or two), and I hope you’ll participate with them here on the forum for disputation with us on salient topics.

I’m not terribly fond myself of jumping right on top of a person when he or she has just made a significant change of belief (as I consider that to be somewhat unfair); but don’t be surprised if some members here want to discuss this particular post with you. I know I want to! :laughing: But what I would say might perhaps be better brought out in posts on the relevant topics. (Or you’ve already read plenty of places where I’ve already talked about those topics, such as the nature of God’s justice in relation to the Trinity, and you think my reasoning is invalid and/or based on faulty data.)

Anyway, I’m glad you’re back to being a Christian (as I recall you saying elsewhere you were looking into), although based on the other things you were saying I am more than a little surprised you went with a type of Calv soteriology after all. But believing and trusting in the persistence of God to save sinners from sin is very much better than not believing in God’s salvation of sinners at all, and besides which I agree with that, too, so I can hardly complain about it! :smiley:

As for replying more specifically to your post, I may do so later, as I know you came here partly thanks to what I wrote elsewhere. (Unless you are a completely different “Cole” than the one from Victor’s website, in which case I most heartily apologize for the coincidental misunderstanding! :smiley: )

hey Jason! No, I’m the same Cole. Cole is my middle name and the name that I go by.

For the sake of your point, what is justice? Not justice according to the western legal mind, but according to God?

Well, in the Bible you have God’s punitive wrath and His corrective wrath. His correction is for His children. His punitive wrath is for the reprobate. Justice as punishment without correction is giving someone what they deserve. Grace is getting what you don’t deserve.

DB was asking what you find and believe justice in itself to be.

Your answer would be that justice in itself is giving someone what they deserve?

Or did you mean justice is only giving someone what they deserve when we’re talking about punishment without correction (and so justice in itself would mean something else, perhaps something very different when we aren’t talking about punishment without correction)?

Or, did you mean to answer that justice in itself is punishment without correction? (I doubt you meant that, from how you phrased your answer, but I’ve heard Christians try to go this route before, so I thought I should ask to be sure.)

Hey Jason,

After thinking this over I have to say that God’s justice is both punitive and corrective for those in hell. When God executes His holy wrath we will be rejoicing. God will be glorified by His justice as well as His grace. For by them He will save all mankind. I still believe that God has a chosen people in this life-time (the firstfruits) who are saved by God’s holy love (grace). Those who suffer under His holy hatred and are purified are the second-fruits. Christ still died only for His chosen people in this lifetime (firstfruits). I hold to everything I use to hold to as a Reformer except hell being everlasting concious torment.