The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Interesting Discussion Starters

Theology General Theology
#1

Some of these could have gone in the Discussion Affirmative part but not all, so I chose general theology.

Colossians 1:28
whom we proclaim, warning every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

Paul proclaims Jesus. He warns every human (man - anthropos). He teaches **every **human. Why? With the goal of presenting **every **human perfect/mature/complete in Christ Jesus. Paul’s ministry goal and expectation was that he might be a part of presenting every human mature in Christ. This of course fits perfectly with the great “all things” through verses 15-20 of the same chapter. If we had this same goal, knowing that one day, everyone we meet would be complete in Christ, and we might have the privilege of contributing to that, how would it change our interactions with people?

Gen 2:16-17 and Gen 3:1-5
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it – dying thou dost die.’
for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it – your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.’

We tend to focus on the “evil” part concerning this tree. But the first bit is “good”. It’s the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not evil and good. I think this is significant (believing as I do that God cares about what He has written in His word, including the word order). When Eve and Adam ate from the tree, they sinned. Sin entered the world. But that enabled them to know good. Before sin entered the world, they didn’t know good. They had nothing to compare it with. Sin is essential for knowing and understanding and feeling what good is. It’s all about contrast.

Matt 24:36-51
Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left; two women shall be grinding in the mill, one is received, and one is left.

The Left Behind series of books popularised the idea that it was a terrrible thing to be left behind. I still remember the Larry Norman (I think?) song “You’ve been left behind”. I think it’s the opposite. All through the book of Matthew, it’s all about the coming of the kingdom, the coming of the Son of Man to reign in glory over the nations. The king (Messiah) reigns on the earth. Israel was looking forward to an earthly kingdom where Messiah would reign. This is why they were so excited at the triumphal entry of Jesus. They still thought he would be the king who would reign on the earth.

I think verse 39 is the key: “and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man.” The flood of Noah’s day took away the wicked, while those saved remained on the earth, once the flood waters had receded. They were saved (by the ark) from the deluge, and saved in order to inhabit the earth again. This is what’s going on in Matt 25. Of the two men in the field, the one who gets taken away corresponds to the wicked of Noah’s day, and the one left behind corresponds to Noah and his family, who were saved from God’s wrath and who will be able to live on into the long-anticipated kingdom reign of Messiah. I could of course be completely wrong about all this. :laughing:

Gal 6:10
therefore, then, as we have opportunity, may we work the good to all, and especially unto those of the household of the faith.

No-one, from any side of the universalist debate, ever puts any doubt on this verse. It’s clear. Paul tells believers to do good to everyone and anyone, as they have the opportunity, but ***especially ***other believers. Cool. No problem. We understand the verse. It makes sense.

But then the exact same construction appears in 1 Tim 4:10: for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men – especially of those believing. The meaning and construction of the verse is as clear as Gal 6:10. So why don’t people believe this verse? Because it doesn’t fit into their existing syste. And instead of adjusting their beliefs to fit the Scripture, they adjust the Scripture to fit their beliefs.

Matt 5:48
ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.

Rather than being a challenge (“You therefore, be perfect,…” - impossible for anyone to keep, by the way), this is a promise. It’s a promise to the Jews, to be sure, but it’s still a promise. The verb is an indicative verb (statement of fact), not an imperative (command) and it’s in the future tense. Countless people can stop worrying about how on earth they could ever live up to this impossible challenge, and instead thank God that He will one day make it all happen.

#2

Hey, I just looked it up and you’re right! The verb is future indicative.

Jesus is saying, “You *will *be perfect in the end, you know, perfect as God himself. I will see to it. Now stop worrying.”

It’s not a command to do the impossible, but a promise that the impossible will be done. Brilliant.

#3

Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm fellas, but it seems there is a chance that the translators could still be correct on this one.
I just looked up “indicative mood” and found this. Anyone knowledgable in NT Greek may be able to add some more information.

Indicative Mood.
This is the declarative mood. It is the mood of certainty. It is a statement of fact which assumes reality. It describes a thing as being fact.
Example: Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith…”
Romans 5:6 “…Christ DIED for the ungodly.”
John 3:16 “For God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son…”
John 1:1 “In the beginning WAS the Word…”
The future indicative can be used to express a command (James 2:8 - “You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself”).

#4

"The future indicative is sometimes used for a command, almost always in the OT quotations (because of a literal translation of the Hebrew). However, it was used even in classical Greek, though infrequently.

eg: Matt 19:18 You shall not murder…"

Ok. We have yet another translational ambiguity. :confused:

Suppose Jesus had said, “Flap your wings, therefore, and fly like angels.” How much sense would that make? I have no wings to flap. However I try, I cannot fly. But if he’d said, “One day you will flap your wings and fly like angels”, that would make perfect sense.

Jesus commanding us to be as perfect as God is very bad news. I know I cannot do it. Jesus knows I cannot do it. Such a command would bring me nothing but bondage, despair and death.

However, Jesus promising that one day we *will *be perfect is the best possible news, bringing life, hope and liberation.

Is Jesus the new Moses who condemns the world, or the new Adam who saves the world?

“Who shall deliver me from this body of death?” My own moral efforts? “Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

#5

I kind of think that “Be perfect” is not the sort of command we have to obey, but rather the sort of command that changes us.

Like when Jesus commands the paralyzed man, “Take up your bed and go home.”

The (formerly) paralyzed man saw instantaneous results, but we have to wait to see the results of the command “be perfect” as they work in us. The Kingdom of God is like a seed – a tiny mustard seed – but it grows. Nobody sees the seed grow (unless they’re a time-lapse photographer), but everyone can see it once it HAS grown. Nevertheless, it is done in heaven (the Kingdom) upon Jesus’ pronouncement.

“Be perfect” frees us to be perfect – which is a thing we could never do without Jesus doing it for/in us.

#6

I think the one about “one taken; one left” is interesting. Would you perhaps expand on this,Rline? I’ve only ever heard hints at this and often wondered what people were talking about.

#7

John 13:34,35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

That sounds impossible to me too. Yet I think we must acknowledge that Jesus still did command this. I do not see it as "bad news, bringing nothing but bondage, despair and death.
I can understand the problem, but I am not sure that the “future indicative” is the best solution.
Perhaps Mark 10:27 is a possible solution -
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

#8

I really like that idea too. This is great. Two good ideas in two days. “Be perfect!” may well be like the command, “Let there be light!”

Sin has smeared God’s image in us. We no longer look like our Father in heaven. The creative word Christ speaks into the world ("Be perfect!) will reverse sin’s work and restore us. Once again, we will bear the perfect image of God.

#9

:slight_smile:

#10

I’ll do my best. :wink:

The problem I think lies in the traditional understanding of what’s going on in Matt 24-25. This understanding says that Jesus was talking about Christians/believers/body of Christ people and explaining that at some point these believers would be taken from the earth to be with Christ forever while the world went to hell. This understanding stems from the tendency of Christians to read everything in the Bible and assume that all of it is applicable to them. I think this understanding is wrong.

In Matt 24:3 it says "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” "

(This is by the way a clear internal evidence for aion not meaning “eternity”, since “the end of the eternity” has no meaning, whereas “the end of the age” has an obvious meaning.)

The disciples ask 3 questions. When will this (temple destroyed) happen? What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the sign of the end of the age. Jesus seems to answer the questions in reverse order. Verses 4-14 answers about the end of the age. Verses 15-25:46 seem to be about Jesus’ coming. Chapter 25 contains 2 parables and a prophecy. The 2 parables are “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like…” parables.

Parable of the virgins - the wise virgins go in with the bridegroom to the wedding banquet, the foolish ones are shut outside.
Parable of the talents - the wise investors get put in charge of many things in their master’s kingdom and share their master’s happiness; the foolish investors get thrown outside, into the darkness, where there’s weeping and gnashing of teeth

These words heark back to 24:46-51, where the wicked servant hangs out with the hypocrites and there’s weeping and gnashing of teeth. 24:15-29 seem to be saying “Dont’ worry, there’s no way you’ll miss this event!”

Now some comments.

In verse 24:31, the angels gather the elect from all over the earth. In the context of the book of Matthew, being written for Jews and primarily concerned with the kingdom of the heavens [indicating its heavenly character, not that it would be located in heaven] and its Messiah-King, the “elect” here are the Jews from all over the earth, God’s faithful remnant from that nation. The question is: why are they being gathered? To leave the earth or to be together on the earth?

In 24:37 we’re told that the coming of the Son of Man will be just as it was in the days of Noah. Everyone went about their normal lives until right up to the flood. Then the flood took them all away. Who did it take away? The “everyone” who were not God’s elect and who perished in the flood. The flood was God’s instrument to take them away. Noah and his family were left behind on the earth (albeit in a floating ark for a long time).

Now, given that the ones who get taken away are the non-elect and the ones who stay are the elect, I think we should connect this with the parables in chapter 25, where there are some who stay and enjoy their master’s happiness (the elect) and some who get locked outside (the non-elect). All the way through, Jesus is saying there are some who will be prepared and ready for what’s coming and some who won’t. The ones who are prepared are “wise” and “faithful” and are compared to Noah and his family. They get to stay and share the blessings of the Master/King/Creator. The ones who are not prepared are “unwise” and “unfaithful” and are compared to hypocrites/evil people of Noah’s day. They don’t get to stay. They get taken away from where all the action is.

It’s with all this context that 24:40-41 should be read. Of the man in the field and the woman at the mill, the ones who are taken away are compared with all the other “taken away” and “shut out” examples. It would be strange for Jesus to be making a point that the ones who are taken away and shut out are the non-elect, except for in verses 40 and 41, particularly with no announcement of this change.

And when we think about why exactly the son of Man is coming, this ties in nicely. The Son of Man is the coming king, coming to usher in the long-awaited kingdom of the Israelites (they put “King of the Jews” on his crucifixion statement to mock him, but this is because this was what Jesus was claiming.) He’s coming to rule over the nations with the twelve tribes of Israel helping him. The kindom isn’t somewhere else; it’s on the earth. And remember that the coming of the Son of Man heralded the end of the age? Well, that means the next/new age begins once He’s here. This is the kingdom which every Israelite grew up waiting for and looking for.

My conlcusion from all this is that

  1. being left behind is a superlatively good thing
  2. being left behind is only something that has any real meaning for Jews
  3. members of the body of Christ don’t have to worry either way about this, because they will be reigning in the heavenlies with Christ. Their destiny is not on the earth but in the heavenlies. (see 2 Cor 5:1, 2 Cor 5:2, 2 Cor 5:4, Eph 3:10, Eph 6:12, 2 Tim 4:18).

I hope this adds a little flesh to what I said earlier. :slight_smile:

#11

That helps a lot, Rline. I’ll look through all this. Meantime, what is this pov called? Where did you get all these things?

#12

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Other people ask me this about stuff I write as well. I seriously have no idea what it’s called. And I don’t think I want a name for it. as soon as there’s a name attached to something, you get “boxed”. You must know what that’s all about?! I really just want to find out what’s going on by finding it in the Scriptures. If it happens to fit exactly with one particular view, so be it. Most of the time, a decent literal translation gets rid of 98% of the problems/issues/apparent contradictions anyway.

Where do I get them? Hopefully from a good literal translation of the Scriptures (I own the concordant literal version, and also use the young’s literal online; I also have the free Interlinear Scripture Analyzer software from scripture4all.org) and some thought. :wink:

I will also say that I’ve found a couple of things incredibly helpful. One is a book called God’s Eonian Purpose, by Adlai Loudy. This is without any question the single best book I’ve ever read on the subject of God, His purpose and everything connected with it. (Having said that, this book said nothing at all about the particular view and passage you’re referring to above.)

I did rename this thread to Discussion Starters, though, so feel free to “contine” the discussion. :slight_smile:

#13

Hi, Rline

Thanks. :slight_smile: I honestly get a lot of things that way too, but I wondered whether someone had started you thinking in that direction. It’s always kind of cool, though, to be running along a train of thought and wonder whether I’m way, way off, and then discover that I’m not the first to go that way. It doesn’t make me right, of course, but it’s encouraging.

Like I said, I’ll have a closer look-through of what you’ve said and maybe come back to discuss it further.

Blessings, Cindy :slight_smile: