Is God The Author Of Evil?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Let’s go back to my list:
Christian Courier
CARM
God and Science
Got Questions

Here’s a few points I found interesting and they give me reflecting points to think about. Maybe these were discussed before but it doesn’t hurt to review them:

**Evil as a thing:
**
Got Questions:

"However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt.

God and Science:

"However, evil is not really a created thing. You can’t see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe.

Evil used in different ways

CARM:

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, rah, is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as evil. The other 232 times it is translated as wicked, bad, hurt, harm, ill, sorrow, mischief, displeased, adversity, affliction, trouble, calamity, grievous, misery, and trouble.
"

Christian Courier

As with many other words, the term “evil” can have more than one meaning, depending upon the manner in which it is used. The Hebrew word for evil is ra’, which derives from a root meaning “to spoil” or “to break in pieces.”

**
God doesn’t always approve**

CARM

"Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

[anon12438761]

Thanks Randy, that’s a real service that adds to the discussion.
I think those quotes reflect what I and you and others have posted. “Evil” is a highly ambiguous, or put another way, multivocal word.

[steve7150]

“Evil” is a highly ambiguous, or put another way, multivocal word.

Call me crazy but in the garden when it was God who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and placed it in the midst of the garden , it sounds like evil is the contrast of good.

Any thoughts?

[Cloud9]

You can’t know good without evil.

I really do think Genesis 3 is some sort of birth of consciousness in the human being.

I haven’t studied him a lot but Swedenborg the mystic might have thought something similar.

Consciousness is a very powerful and difficult thing for a person to control.

Boredom for example…Probably lures more people into trouble than anything.

We have to keep our minds full with the right ideas or we are in trouble.

As a man thinketh in his heart so he is.

God definitely exhorts us in the use of our thought process in the bible.

[anon12438761]

It feels to me like we are continuing the same dance, over and over, dealing with the idea “Did God Create Evil?”

What are we asking? I think we’ve asked the following repeatedly:

1. Did God directly create badness, lust, darkness of mind, lechery, adultery, mass murders, child pornography and other TYPES of evil?

2. Did God create humankind with the definite plan for humans to commit the above evils? In other words, He WANTED evil to happen?

3. Did God create mankind with the ability to choose evil? IS THAT THE SAME AS SAYING GOD CREATED EVIL? Same question: did His creating that Tree equate to creating evil?

4. Does evil ‘have’ to exist for ‘good’ to exist?

5. Is evil a thing? Or the lack of a thing? Or is it a general word we give to some certain activities of men and some angels?

My thought is that evil is what God calls certain acts and attitudes, as do we, to the extent we reflect His mind. Evil is not a Being, though many beings are evil; that is, they commit certain acts or condone or encourage such acts in themselves or others.
God has no opposite, and since He is all-Good, it follows that goodness does not need an opposite, evil, to be good.

In which of the above senses do you think that God ‘created’ evil?

[LLC]

Randy, I also thank you for your posts. I agree with Dave. Your research adds to the discussion. Concerning what God and science says, “You can’t see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil” I’m not sure what they mean by this, but I will have to disagree here. We definitely get bad feelings about certain things. I mean if someone drove up in a clunky van and offered you a piece of candy to get in, I think that you’d sense something evil about the whole scenario. As far as hearing and seeing evil, people say evil things and commit evil deeds on a daily basis, just turn on the news.

Steve, God gave us a conscience, reasoning power and other brain faculties. This inner knowledge helps us determine right from wrong before we act. Also, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was just there in the garden, it doesn’t say that God created it.

Eaglesway, I’m not getting your example of the flood. God destroys mankind so that mankind doesn’t destroy itself? I think that we destroy ourselves with our evil ways, but God is the One who saves.

P.S. I have to apologize, I haven’t quite figured out the quote thing yet.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Let’s start with the word evil and an online dictionary. It has many connotations:

As an Adjective:

profoundly immoral and malevolent.
harmful or tending to harm.
(of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.

As a noun

profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
a manifestation of this, especially in people’s actions.
something that is harmful or undesirable.

If we take an online thesaurus, we can see many words we can substitute. So right away, we see differing meanings. A skunk is evil because his spray is undesirable. But Hiltler killing jews is unethical or immoral. See? Different meanings.

Then we have the issue if God is all knowing, did he create evil because he or she, knew the end result. Different theologians and philosophers come up with various solutions here. Like open theists say God only knows possibilities and wouldn’t know every possibility that can be known. It is a solution - but not necessarily one I would agree with.

And even the Christian mystics have some perspective on this debate. Jacob Boehme was a German Lutheran mystic. Where he described " Fall as a necessary stage in the evolution of the Universe." let’s explore this a bit at Boehme

He emphasized will as the prime motivating factor within God, and taught that God had given man the will to choose to seek divine grace. He also taught that the Fall of Man was a necessary stage in the evolution of the universe, saying that it was necessary for humanity to depart from God, through the rebellion of Satan, the separation of Eve from Adam, and their acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil, in order for creation to evolve to a new and more perfect state of redeemed harmony.

And you know what? If I were to choose between the unconventional wisdom of Jacob Boehme or open theists - I would run with Boehme

We can find whole courses in philosophy that cover the problem of evil. A good outline is found at The Problem of Evil

Peter Kreeft (Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College) gives some good traditional, Christian answers in The Problem of Evil

Perhaps his YouTube answer gives insight into “evil as a thing” from a previous post.

And an unconventional approach is how we view evil - through a dark lens, as Saint Paul would say. This response on evil and the Christian response to it, came from the Journal of Christian Theology and Philosophy. It’s called Eternal Selves and The Problem of Evil (William Ferraiolo, Ph.D from the University of Oklahoma).

I encourage you to read through the Peter Kreeft (and watch his Youtube message) and the William Ferraiolo articles. They give some good food for thought.

But we are just rehashing a problem that great minds like Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine have wrestled with. And a problem every academic philosophy and theology department has a course in. And suppose we have a brilliant and unconventional answer to the problem here? What then? How would we convince the world at large, we found the answer?

Note to cloud9: You are off topic in your answer following this. Trying to be a prophet? I was raised by my mom, who was a prophet. She lived with me, the last 10 years of her life. If God has messages for me, he either spoke through her or is speaking to me directly . And my own theological perspective here is just as valid (or invalid) as yours, or anyone else on the forum here. You are free to accept or reject it - as you see fit - but it won’t change it.

[Cloud9]

Randy…I used to use dictionaries…but you have to be careful with them.

We want to let God define things as much as possible.

He is the source of all knowledge not the world.

This world is always acting authoritative trying to steal God’s thunder.

Start consulting God directly from the bible more.

We abide in Christ…We are branches of the vine of Christ…

And we have to graft people into the vine of Christ God’s way…not the world’s way…the world has been corrupted.

I know a bible scholar who thinks the Hindus came from Abraham… the word Brahmins comes from Abraham…but if they did…they came out of the old corrupted Lost Tribes of Israel…

And now they need Jesus Christ personally to uncorrupt them.

We stick closer to Jesus to become like him not wander all over the place and get lost.

Mahatma Gandi actually did the Hindus a great disservice.

He got the Indians free from Britain and kept them enslaved in a false religion.

Did you know Gandhi got civil disobedience from Jesus Christ’s Sermon on the Mount?

So Gandhi knew Jesus but failed to worship and acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. He used Jesus’ teachings against Jesus.

We are suppose to be elevating the spiritual over the physical in our thinking…not handicapping it.

[Cloud9]

Let’s start with the word evil and an online dictionary. It has many connotations:

As an Adjective:

profoundly immoral and malevolent.
harmful or tending to harm.
(of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.

As a noun

profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
a manifestation of this, especially in people’s actions.
something that is harmful or undesirable.

If we take an online thesaurus, we can see many words we can substitute. So right away, we see differing meanings. A skunk is evil because his spray is undesirable. But Hiltler killing jews is unethical or immoral. See? Different meanings.

Then we have the issue if God is all knowing, did he create evil because he or she, knew the end result. Different theologians and philosophers come up with various solutions here. Like open theists say God only knows possibilities and wouldn’t know every possibility that can be known. It is a solution - but not necessarily one I would agree with.

And even the Christian mystics have some perspective on this debate. Jacob Boehme was a German Lutheran mystic. Where he described " Fall as a necessary stage in the evolution of the Universe." let’s explore this a bit at Boehme

He emphasized will as the prime motivating factor within God, and taught that God had given man the will to choose to seek divine grace. He also taught that the Fall of Man was a necessary stage in the evolution of the universe, saying that it was necessary for humanity to depart from God, through the rebellion of Satan, the separation of Eve from Adam, and their acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil, in order for creation to evolve to a new and more perfect state of redeemed harmony.

And you know what? If I were to choose between the unconventional wisdom of Jacob Boehme or open theists - I would run with Boehme

We can find whole courses in philosophy that cover the problem of evil. A good outline is found at The Problem of Evil

Peter Kreeft (Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College) gives some good traditional, Christian answers in The Problem of Evil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2NmwGG0XPE

Perhaps his YouTube answer gives insight into “evil as a thing” from a previous post.

And an unconventional approach is how we view evil - through a dark lens, as Saint Paul would say. This response on evil and the Christian response to it, came from the Journal of Christian Theology and Philosophy. It’s called Eternal Selves and The Problem of Evil (William Ferraiolo, Ph.D from the University of Oklahoma).

I encourage you to read through the Peter Kreeft (and watch his Youtube message) and the William Ferraiolo articles. They give some good food for thought.

But we are just rehashing a problem that great minds like Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine have wrestled with. And a problem every academic philosophy and theology department has a course in. And suppose we have a brilliant and unconventional answer to the problem here? What then? How would we convince the world at large, we found the answer?

Note to cloud9: You are off topic in your answer following this. Trying to be a prophet? I was raised by my mom, who was a prophet. She lived with me, the last 10 years of her life. If God has messages for me, he either spoke through her or is speaking to me directly . And my own theological perspective here is just as valid (or invalid) as yours, or anyone else on the forum here. You are free to accept or reject it - as you see fit - but it won’t change it.

You ought to read Creation’s Jubilee. Saint Augustine is part of the problem…He is one of the people who instituted eternal torment doctrine.

The Word of God is the incorruptible seed. The bible calls it the incorruptible seed.

When you sow the Word of God in a person you are leaving a seed that God can activate when He determines is the best time to activate that seed.

When you sow the ideas of other religions you are not sowing God’s seed in people’s hearts and minds but you may be sowing weeds that compete with and try to choke out God’s seed.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

When you sow the ideas of other religions you are not sowing God’s seed in people’s hearts and minds but you may be sowing weeds that compete with and try to choke out God’s seed.

There is a difference between sowing the ideas of other religions and having a dialogue with them - like the Roman Catholic church does. Or Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism does. You have your way - to preach to them. I have my way, which is to sit down with them and find common ground. Then I talk to them about Christ and listen to them talk.

[Cloud9]

When you sow the ideas of other religions you are not sowing God’s seed in people’s hearts and minds but you may be sowing weeds that compete with and try to choke out God’s seed.

There is a difference between sowing the ideas of other religions and having a dialogue with them - like the Roman Catholic church does. Or Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism does. You have your way - to preach to them. I have my way, which is to sit down with them and find common ground. Then I talk to them about Christ and listen to them talk.

You need to take charge of the conversation…you are God’s representative on Earth…that is what a disciple is.

Christ came to show the way…not knuckle under to false religions.

We respect people.

We don’t respect false beliefs because false beliefs keeps people in sin and sin destroys people.

We need to be modeling the strong image of Christ.

We need to be disciples…not just Christians…we need to be delivering the strong seed not the weak watered down version of the world.

What we sow determines our eternal identities…identities determine destinies.

Attila the Hun sowed violence…so he became a ruthless murdering despot.

You better be sure you aren’t adding to The Word of God…nobody really wants the watered down seed if they understand what it implies…

Vedanta, Buddhism…what are these things? If you can’t find them in the pages of the bible…be careful…some could be doctrines of demons.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Or wrong Christian ideas could be the doctrines of demons. Or trying to explain everything we don’t agree with as the work of demons - could be the work of demons. Or just be the work of misguided men. For your info, Vedanta is not a religion. It is a school of philosophy. Like Plato or Aristotle is a school of philosophy. Yes, Vedanta has been used to explain the Hindu faith tradition, just like Plato and Aristotle were used by Catholic theologians of the middle ages, to explain Christian theology. But it is philosophy - nonetheless.

Here’s the difference between us - pay close attention. You look on all religions as evil or demon created - whatever. I look on them as not having the full truth - but Christ is working in them. Christ is both beyond religion and working in religion. And we need to acknowledge what is positive in them, then go on to dialogue about Christ. The Roman Catholic Church has done that exceptionally well since Vatican II. All Protestant groups that embrace Inclusive theology (i.e. Church of England) have done that well. The Quaker tradition of the inner light shows Christ working through all traditions.

But aren’t we getting off topic again? The topic here is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” not “What is wrong with Randy’s theology in dialoging with other faith traditions?” I suggest opening a separate topic, if the admins and moderators allow it. Just make it a general topic and not one with a person’s name in it.

[Cloud9]

Or wrong Christian ideas could be the doctrines of demons. Or trying to explain everything we don’t agree with as the work of demons - could be the work of demons. Or just be the work of misguided men. For your info, Vedanta is not a religion. It is a school of philosophy. Like Plato or Aristotle is a school of philosophy. Yes, Vedanta has been used to explain the Hindu faith tradition, just like Plato and Aristotle were used by Catholic theologians of the middle ages, to explain Christian theology. But it is philosophy - nonetheless.

But aren’t we getting off topic again? The topic here is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” not “What is wrong with Randy’s theology in dialoging with other faith traditions?” I suggest opening a separate topic, if the admins and moderators allow it. Just make it a general topic and not one with a person’s name in it.

Randy…you have a lot of intelligence…and the devil is using it against you…

You are supposed to be God’s lion cub…that is why as God’s lioness I swat you…

Lion cubs need a good swatting every now and then…It knocks some godly sense into them.

Find the verses in the Old Testament…we are never to tolerate evil…in our thinking or anyone else’s…

You are too used to being conciliating with people…but sometimes people don’t respect interpersonal boundaries…and demons are like viruses …they never respect boundaries…

If you give a demon an opening he will always take it and you have been entertaining every demonic doctrine in the world to keep from being mentally bored haven’t you?

Well start giving God a full time audience and see if He doesn’t reveal a lot to you.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

But aren’t we getting off topic again? The topic here is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” not “What is wrong with Randy’s theology in dialoging with other faith traditions?” I suggest opening a separate topic, if the admins and moderators allow it. Just make it a general topic and not one with a person’s name in it. Open up a topic on demons. Or open one up on how to best convert others to Christianity. I’m sure the admins, moderators and participants here, will agree with this idea. And agree it is better than getter off topic, on personal theological differences. Or what or what does not constitute demon attacks over other explanations before defaulting to demons as a cause - such as scientific ones.

[Cloud9]

But aren’t we getting off topic again? The topic here is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” not “What is wrong with Randy’s theology in dialoging with other faith traditions?” I suggest opening a separate topic, if the admins and moderators allow it. Just make it a general topic and not one with a person’s name in it.

Because it impacts your identity.

A lion has to take care of himself and grow up to be a full strength lion before he can take care of other lions.

You always have to take care of,yourself first…or you are no good to anybody…

Who will watch the cubs if you let a demon make you sick…you will die before reaching spiritual maturity.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I’m off to church shortly. So I’ll stop talking now. I’ll let you continue to talk about demons - if you want. But again. All here would agree it’s best not to get off topic and to open it up for discussion, as a separate topic area.

[Cloud9]

I’m off to church shortly. So I’ll stop talking now. I’ll let you continue to talk about demons - if you want. But again. All here would agree it’s best not to get off topic and to open it up for discussion, as a separate topic area.

But people have been watching and learning in this thread.

God just swooped in to redirect our thinking onto the narrow way.

Identity is narrow not broad.

Identity is a defined path.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

God just swooped in to redirect our thinking onto the narrow way.

Like I mentioned before. There are theological views of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, various Protestant denominations and what Bible Churches, TV evangelists and community churches think is correct. I’m sure if you could take a global poll, half would probably agree with me and half would not. How many of these do you think would agree with your mentor - Dr. Stephen Jones? But again. I keep getting back to that the topic for this discussion is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” And we are not discussing it right now. So I’m off to service.

[Cloud9]

God just swooped in to redirect our thinking onto the narrow way.

Like I mentioned before. There are theological views of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, various Protestant denominations and what Bible Churches, TV evangelists and community churches think is correct. I’m sure if you could take a global poll, half would probably agree with me and half would not. How many of these do you think would agree with your mentor - Dr. Stephen Jones? But again. I keep getting back to that the topic for this discussion is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” And we are not discussing it right now. So I’m off to service.

We are living in the Last Days and the Last Days are like the Days of Noah and Noah was all alone in the world.

Numbers mean very little to me. At least the way the world uses numbers.

God used Samson all alone to take a House of Philistines down.

Read the Old Testament…God only needs one,fully dedicated person to change the world…He did it already with Jesus Christ.

[Cloud9]

God just swooped in to redirect our thinking onto the narrow way.

Like I mentioned before. There are theological views of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, various Protestant denominations and what Bible Churches, TV evangelists and community churches think is correct. I’m sure if you could take a global poll, half would probably agree with me and half would not. How many of these do you think would agree with your mentor - Dr. Stephen Jones? But again. I keep getting back to that the topic for this discussion is “Is God The Author Of Evil?” And we are not discussing it right now. So I’m off to service.

Oh and a lot of the evangelical universalists already agree with Jones.

It is just Jones gives the clearest biblical picture.