Is it Always God's Will to Heal?

[Paidion]

I keep a radio going throughout the night in our corn patch to keep the coons from destroying it. It is tuned to a local “Christian” radio station.

This morning I went out to turn it off for the day as usual and I heard these words shouted with a forceful tone, “They think it is always God’s will to heal! They should know better if they’d read their New Testaments!”

Well, I’ve read my New Testament, and I have never found Jesus refusing to heal anyone on the ground that it is not God’s will. Indeed, I find in several places that He healed them ALL!

Matthew 4:24 So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them.
Matthew 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Matthew 12:15 Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all.
Luke 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any who were sick with various diseases brought them to him, and he laid his hands on every one of them and healed them.
Luke 6:19 And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power came out from him and healed them all.

We also find that when people nearby Jerusalem brought their sick to the apostles, all of the sick were healed:

Acts 5:16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Of course, we know that many or most people are not healed, even though people pray for them. But that doesn’t imply that it is God’s will for them NOT to be healed!

Because God does not prevent the many atrocities that take place daily throughout the world, does not imply that it is God’s will. If it were God’s will, it would indicate that God is an ogre, rather than the being the God whose very essence is LOVE! The reason God does not intervene needs a different explanation from the one that affirms that it is His will that these atrocities take place!

God’s will is usually not being done in this world. Is that not the reason that Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”? That prayer would be unnecessary if God’s will were always being done on earth.

I think that if God’s will were always done on earth, there would be NO atrocities, and ALL the sick would be healed. I would be happy to learn your thoughts on this very important matter.

[anon12438761]

Another home run for Don!

[steve7150]

God’s will is usually not being done in this world. Is that not the reason that Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”? That prayer would be unnecessary if God’s will were always being done on earth.

I want to believe it is God’s will to always heal but it’s possible Jesus healed the ones he came into contact with for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy.

[St_Michael]

we are encouraged to use medicine for illnesses from the bible:

1 Tim. 5:23

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

We are all completely healed when we enter into the new heavens and earth where there is no more curse:

Revelation 22:3

No longer will there be any curse.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the old order of things have passed away.”

Indeed Paul prayed to be healed but was not healed:

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[Paidion]

Michael, I think you misunderstood me.

1. I did not say that we ought not to use medicines.
2. I did not say that people are always healed if prayer is offered for them.
3. I do not advocate the prosperity gospel.

All I have basically suggested is that is is never God’s will that people are ill, or that atrocities are committed.

In the case of Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” (the passage you quoted), Paul stated that it was given to him by Satan—not God. Paul said nothing that indicated that God WANTED him to have it, but that He used it to complete His strength in Paul’s weakness.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Yes, it is God’s will to always heal. Unless he wants to call someone home. Or some other unknown reason.

And I do take the messages, of TV evangelist Joel Osteen - to heart. And I don’t advocate the prosperity gospel - as most evangelists advocate it. It’s more a result of contemplating God, like we see in the Fox Golden Key, Not giving money, to the prosperity gospel preacher. How did Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science - do the healings attributed to her? Not through her theology or the health and prosperity gospel. But contemplating the omnipresence and omnipotence of God. And us being created, in God’s image and likeness (i.e. it is a journey in Theosis - in Eastern Orthodoxy). And in addition - healers, either tapping into the energies of God (i.e. Eastern Orthodox essence and energies) and/or the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have hung around Native American medicine men and women.
And also a Roman Catholic priest, who has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God.
And I have observed healings, in the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends and the Japanese healing modality Johrei

And I have observed many healings and healing attempts. Sometimes:

A person is instantly healed - even from incurable diseases
A person takes a bit of time to heal - even from incurable diseases
Sometimes a person is partially healed - even from incurable diseases
Sometimes the person is not healed or eventually dies.

And I’ll give an Eastern Orthodox answer. It is a divine mystery, as to why the different results.

And the person is normally also seeing traditional doctors and specialists, along with the traditional medical tests. God works through doctors, healers and alternative medical practitioners. But when God wants someone to come home - they come home. But it is our duty, to avail ourselves - of every good healing option.

God’s will is usually not being done in this world. Is that not the reason that Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”? That prayer would be unnecessary if God’s will were always being done on earth.

The Roman Catholic priest says God always answers prayer. He either gives us something now or something better for eternity.

“I would rather make mistakes in kindness and compassion than work miracles in unkindness and hardness.”-- Mother Teresa

[maintenanceman]

Don said

Because God does not prevent the many atrocities that take place daily throughout the world, does not imply that it is God’s will. If it were God’s will, it would indicate that God is an ogre, rather than the being the God whose very essence is LOVE! The reason God does not intervene needs a different explanation from the one that affirms that it is His will that these atrocities take place!

But wouldn’t you say that most Christians have a belief (or superstition) that if they ‘work hard enough at being good’ God will smile down on them and keep them or deliver them from a malady?

Don also said

I think that if God’s will were always done on earth, there would be NO atrocities, and ALL the sick would be healed.

I gotta wonder about this Paidion, Wikipedia states that there are over… well here is the quote:

How Many Christian Denominations Are There?
Wikipedia (quoting Christianity Today) says there are “approximately 38,000” Christian denominations.
The World Christian Encyclopedia of 2001 counted 33,830. (For a breakdown of these numbers, see this Fact Sheet, which also pulls data from the World Christian Database mentioned below. Here’s a tidbit you’ll find in the fact sheet: There are 242 Roman Catholic denominations! And another: It is estimated there will be 55,000 denominations by the year 2025, which does not say much for ecumenism.)

Now even if this number is off, this tells me that there are a bunch of people trying to get it right. So to clarify your statement above, do ALL (people on earth) have to get it right (do God’s will) to be rid of atrocities and sickness?

[Hermano]

…do ALL (people on earth) have to get it right (do God’s will) to be rid of atrocities and sickness?

No. Just Jesus. Isaiah 53 indicates that Messiah would TAKE our sin and suffering, and GIVE us his righteousness and shalom (shalom being variously translated as “health,” “prosperity,” “safety,” “contentment,” “friendship,” and “peace”). Jesus has done that.

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” NIV.

[Paidion]

Now even if this number is off, this tells me that there are a bunch of people trying to get it right. So to clarify your statement above, do ALL (people on earth) have to get it right (do God’s will) to be rid of atrocities and sickness?

I have in no way suggested that people have to DO God’s will in order to be rid of atrocities and sickness. All I have suggested is that it is NOT GOD’S WILL that there be atrocities and sickness. That doesn’t mean that His will shall be carried out. Clearly God’s will is not being carried out as long as there are atrocities and sickness. I’m not suggesting that this is the fault of people for not praying enough or “getting it right.”

Truly it IS the fault of those who commit atrocities. But no matter how much Christians pray, the atrocities continue. Why? Also sickness continues.
There must be another explanation. Perhaps someone could offer reasons as to why sickness continues. For example, perhaps it’s a part of what we now call “nature”—not God’s original intention, but the result of THE FALL of man and all creation. For example, why do mosquitoes irritate people and mammals by biting and sucking their blood? Could this be the result of THE FALL? For an experiment was done with mosquitoes. They were confined in a large enclosure in which there were many plants but no animals or people. They sucked the juices of the plants and produced offspring from that.

[davo]

To the degree people follow the base-interests of selfishness to that degree there will be atrocities of varying proportions. However, to the degree people learn to ‘love thy neighbour/enemy’ i.e., follow the golden rule (Lk 6:31, 35), to that degree self-interest and in consequence “atrocities” are more liable to be held in check. Those “who are zealous for good works” (Tit 2:14) can indeed be proactive in the outworking of righteousness to the benefit of all (Isa 32:17).

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Well, speaking of healing. I’m off to the Theosofest at bit.ly/2bB3xUf. And I’m meeting a Roman Catholic, female friend there. She has her PhD in psychology - from Northwestern. I’m also friends with the Native American presenter, Quentin Young. Who is an author, on the visions of Black Elk. Actually, I have been in many of his lodges. There are also 2 Japanese groups, giving light - I know. Sukyo Mahikari and Johrei. BOTH are worth experiencing and are free. And if you see some teenagers, with a sign - saying free readings. They are from the Vineyard Church and work via the Holy Spirit. Also well worth checking out. As well as the Indian food. There is a Tibetan Lama - Lobsang Palden - giving blessings. I will look him up. This is all healing stuff, folks.

All this “new age” stuff, will probably corrupt us both.

But I promise to make amends tomorrow. By attending an Anglican church, that honors conservative theology, the real communion prescience and charismatic gifts - of the spirit.

In case anyone complaints, I’m not using the Google URL shortener. Well, I was talking to a female Catholic friend - from India. And I used Bitly instead. But I do have all links checked by OpenDNS, Norton Security Suite and McAfee site adviser. 3 of the best tools - in the industry.

Now let me try, my hand at logic

Chocolate comes from cocoa, which is a tree. That makes it a plant… so chocolate is a salad."-- Author Unknown

[Paidion]

Thanks Davo. Good points!

[Origen]

How do these passages relate to the subject:

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Should we distinguish between His perfect will & His (judging) will under certain other circumstances:

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That last portion recalls Job’s experience.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Well, I’m back now. My Roman Catholic Northwestern, PhD holder friend and myself - enjoyed the day. There was a lecture or two, interacting with the Holy Spirit church readings, a couple of Japanese light healing modalities and taking part, in a Peruvian ceremony.

And I even received a blessing - from the Tibetan lama. He’s opening up a sandwich deli. They now call him the Deli Lama

But I’ll make up for it tomorrow. By watching TV evangelist Joel Osteen. And attending the conservative Anglican church, that honors the real communion presence and the gifts of the spirit. And I’ll watch the hurricane news - on the weather channel.

[Agnostic_Gabe]

Seems like a great way to keep belief alive. Just say it isn’t God’s will to heal all, or say it is, but that his will isn’t done here most of the time. Seems like no matter what happens, God had an out via him being toothless, or heartless.

[anon12438761]

toothless, or heartless.

I believe that is a false dichotomy, Gabe. You seem to be in that frame of mind these days, I hope it gets better for you soon.

[Paidion]

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That last portion recalls Job’s experience.

Let’s consider the passage with a bit more context:

1 ¶ It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.
2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

This passage indicates God’s corrective judgment. This man needed his “flesh” to be destroyed (not his life taken). The church at Corinth did deal appropriately with this man by shunning him or excommunicating him as Paul instructed a few verses later:

9 ¶ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

This treatment had a positive effect on the man. He repented (had a change of heart and mind) about having been copulating with his father’s wife (his step-mother). After his repentance, Paul had quite different instructions to the Corinthian Church concerning this man:

23 But I call God to witness against me—it was to spare you that I refrained from coming again to Corinth.
24 Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, for you stand firm in your faith.
1 For I made up my mind not to make another painful visit to you.
2 For if I cause you pain, who is there to make me glad but the one whom I have pained?
3 And I wrote as I did, so that when I came I might not suffer pain from those who should have made me rejoice, for I felt sure of all of you, that my joy would be the joy of you all.
4 For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you.
5 ¶ Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.
6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,
7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.
9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.
10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs. (2 Cor 1:23-23, 2:1-11)

[Agnostic_Gabe]

toothless, or heartless.

I believe that is a false dichotomy, Gabe. You seem to be in that frame of mind these days, I hope it gets better for you soon.

You are free to present a third, fourth, fifth, etc… Option.

[anon12438761]

And you are ready to shoot them down, one by one? It’s not hard to do, I’ve done it myself, and did for years. Once our mind has been narrowed to the one deep rut of 'bad things happen, ergo…" , it’s hard for us to grow out of. But growth is the only thing that will help.

And will growth change the laws of logic? Will the tough-minded be able to subject the universe to the coldness of A is not B? - in other words, will any amount of comforting or intellectual challenge or insight change the one in the rut, who will always come back with - "unless you can tell me why X happens, I will not believe? "
It is possible and profitable to be aware of two opposing things at once, but it is not easy : to hold the cold hard truth of evil and also to be aware of the ‘Beauty of the Infinite’, the glory yet to come, immortality, and the Presence that heals the wounds that men have wrought upon one another.

The meaning of the world comes from beyond the world.

From Frederick Beuchner:
“The problem of evil is perhaps the greatest single problem for religious faith.
There have been numerous theological and philosophical attempts to solve it, but when it comes down to the reality of evil itself, they are none of them worth much. When a child is raped and murdered, the parents are not apt to take much comfort from the explanation (better than most) that since God wants us to love him, we must be free to love or not to love and thus free to rape and murder a child if we take a notion to.
Christian Science solves the problem of evil by saying that it does not exist except as an illusion of mortal mind. Buddhism solves it in terms of reincarnation and an inexorable law of cause and effect whereby the raped child is merely reaping the consequences of evil deeds she committed in another life.
Christianity, on the other hand, ultimately offers no theoretical solution at all. It merely points to the cross and says that, practically speaking, there is no evil so dark and so obscenenot even thisbut that God can turn it to good.”

[Agnostic_Gabe]

The rut exists for everyone already. The difference is whether one decides to face it, or pretend it isn’t there and ignores it. Pretending a problem isn’t a problem can work, but it isn’t reality. That said, I will grant you that reality may not be the most practical position to hold for ones well being. But growing out of the “rut” as you call it, need not be done only one way. Coping mechanisms have many roads. Religion is one, just like hedonism. They both are designed to help people cope with the unknown.