The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is It Psychopathic To Believe In Eternal Punishment?

qaz,

Heaven and earth is a merism that means “ALL THINGS” - they are "MADE NEW"

Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” have God as their God. And they are His people

There’s no more pain death and suffering for those in the **“ALL THINGS MADE NEW”. ** Death is destroyed inside the gates

All things are being made new in the new heaven and earth - "ALL THINGS"

Those in the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” are God’s children - BUT

Without a doubt this separates those in the lake of fire from the “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” They are not a part of it. Now lets look at the parallel.

Same context of “ALL THINGS MADE NEW” = NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH

Clearly “ALL MANDKIND” will worship God in the "ALL THINGS MADE NEW"

Those in the lake of fire are excluded from the “ALL THINGS NEW” and "ALL MANKIND"

I agree that they never close and that some will enter the gates. But I also believe that many are called and few are chosen. God saves some out of the fire but not all. I also would like to see what Jason thinks. And seeing I’ve been on this subject for too long I will let him respond and call it quits. I’m wore out on this. :smiley:

I believe people act according to reasons. They have desires. That is motives. Without motives a choice cannot be judged good or evil. Those in the lake of fire don’t want God. When God choses some (by extending His mercy and grace) the people want to come to God. People choose Christ because they want to. It’s a freely chosen decision. We love because He first loved us. Does that help?

qaz,

God creates the desire by piercing the heart. Here:

Union

In union with you upon the cross
As love’s arrow pierces my heart
I die to myself and suffer loss
Then given a new life and start

Buried to my old self I then rise
Vision is now clear as I can see
New self reflects in Your eyes
The person I am and want to be

Looking deeper into Your face
Beauty becomes brighter inside
With no more wrath only grace
In union with You I now confide

Just in case you didn’t catch this on the previous post:

I believe people act according to reasons. They have desires. That is motives. Without motives a choice cannot be judged good or evil. Those in the lake of fire don’t want God. When God choses some (by extending His mercy and grace) the people want to come to God. People choose Christ because they want to. It’s a freely chosen decision. We love because He first loved us. Does that help?

Everybody is being invited but only a few are chosen out of the lake of fire. They have the ability to choose love of God but because their hearts are separated from all redeeming grace they don’t want God. They hate Him. Their hearts are hardened.

qaz,

How do you interpret the wedding parable “Many are called but few are chosen”?

I told you yes. Everybody is being invited but only a few are chosen out of the lake of fire. The wedding banquet parable tells us that many are invited but few are chosen.

Again, yes. They have the ability to choose God but because their hearts are separated from grace it’s hardened. They don’t want God. They hate Him.

How do you interpret the wedding banquet parable “Many are invited but few are chosen”? Here’s mine:

The invitation goes out to all in the lake of fire but you have to be thirsty to come. That is, you have to have the desire. You have to want it. This happens when God pierces the heart giving you the desire.

okay qaz I’m calling this one quits. You can have the last response if you like. I’ve got to move on.

I need to end where I started the topic of the thread though. Despite the problems I’ve had with it in the past the doctrine of hell can be humbling. I see the problems I had with it in the past as a purgation process. Yes we are motivated by the love, hope, and beauty of God. But there must be a fear of the consequences of turning away from love and beauty. In healthy people there is a fear of the consequences. According to Bill Wilson of Alcoholics Anonymous:

From the Catholic Fr. Cajetan Mary da Bergamo in the book, “Humility Of Heart”:

.

If the fear of the consequences of having my jaw removed from getting cancer caused by chewing tobacco keeps me from chewing tobacco then there’s nothing wrong with that. If the fear of being violently attacked by druggers and drug dealers keeps me from going to drug town and buying drugs then there’s nothing wrong with that either. But our main motivation should be the love, hope, and beauty of God.

Two Wings

Reveal Your beauty to me
It’s Your face that I want to see
Shining down from the sky
From the moon, the stars up high

Reveal Your glory to my heart
Give my life a glowing new start
Cleansing me from all black sin
Letting me fly around once again

Heaven holds my hope and love
Hell my fear, making me a dove
With these two wings I can soar
And dance along life’s tender shore

Reveal Your splendor through my eyes
As I sing along love’s golden skies
Lovely, soft tunes of wonder and joy
Bringing me back to when I was a boy

Protect Your own with tender care
In the New Creation You are there
Keeping me safe under two wings
Evil is kept out as heaven sings

With love and hate I’m forever new
In Holy beauty, in love with You
Glory shines forever on Your child
Love flows strong, meek and mild

Loving all good and hating all evil
With a special love for Your people
Forever protected under two wings
Inside Your light, ecstasy it brings

Two wings to soar and fly up higher
Holy passion is my only desire
In heaven’s glory there is a fire
Cleansed and refined we go up higher

To answer the original question simply - Yes!

:smiley:

Let’s look at who are NOT chosen. :smiley:

What do you mean Maintenance? Not sure I understand.

Chris,

What do you make of this? St. Teresa Of Avilla is one of the mystical saints I read. Her mysticism is called “bridal mysticism”. She was a holy Saint. She wasn’t a psychopath. Here’s her vision of hell

St. Theresa of Avila’s vision of hell…

“You have but two final destinies: Heaven and hell. Know that Satan will try to remove the reality of the existence of his kingdom, hell, from you. If he makes a farce of his existence among you, he will deceive you so that you will sin and remove yourselves from the Spirit of light. And when you remove yourselves from the Spirit of light, you remove yourselves from eternal life in the Kingdom of your Father, the most high God in Heaven.” - Our Lady of the Roses, February 1, 1975

Born in 1515 in the kingdom of Castile in Spain, St. Theresa of Avila was the youngest child of a virtuous nobleman. When she was seven years old, Teresa fled from her home with one of her young brothers, in the hope of going to Africa and receiving the palm of martyrdom. Brought back and asked the reason for her flight, she replied: “I want to see God, and I must die before I can see Him.” She then began, with her same brother, Rodriguez, to build a hermitage in the garden, and was often heard repeating: “Forever, forever!” She lost her mother at the age of twelve years, and was led by worldly companions into various frivolities. Her father decided to place her in a boarding convent, and she obeyed without any inclination for this kind of life. Grace came to her assistance with the good guidance of the Sisters, and she decided to enter religion in the Carmelite monastery of the Incarnation at Avila. For a time frivolous conversations there, too, checked her progress toward perfection, but finally in her thirty-first year, she abandoned herself entirely to God. A vision showed her the very place in hell to which her apparently light faults would have led her, and she was told by Our Lord that all her conversation must be with heaven. Ever afterwards she lived in the deepest distrust of herself. The following is her description of hell:

"A long time after the Lord had already granted me many of the favors I’ve mentioned and other very lofty ones, while I was in prayer one day, I suddenly found that, without knowing how, I had seemingly been put in hell. I understood that the Lord wanted me to see the place the devils had prepared there for me and which I merited because of my sins. This experience took place within the shortest space of time, but even were I to live for many years I think it would be impossible for me to forget it. The entrance it seems to me was similar to a very long and narrow alleyway, like an oven, low and dark and confined; the floor seemed to me to consist of dirty, muddy water emitting foul stench and swarming with putrid vermin. At the end of the alleyway a hole that looked like a small cupboard was hollowed out in the wall; there I found I was placed in a cramped condition. All of this was delightful to see in comparison with what I felt there. What I have described can hardly be exaggerated.
"What I felt, it seems to me, cannot even begin to be exaggerated; nor can it be understood. I experienced a fire in the soul that I don’t know how I could describe. The bodily pains were so unbearable that though I had suffered excruciating ones in this life and according to what doctors say, the worst that can be suffered on earth for all my nerves were shrunken when I was paralyzed, plus many other sufferings of many kinds that I endured and even some as I said, caused by the devil, these were all nothing in comparison with the ones I experienced there. I saw furthermore that they would go on without end and without ever ceasing. This, however, was nothing next to the soul’s agonizing: a constriction, a suffocation, an affliction so keenly felt and with such a despairing and tormenting unhappiness that I don’t know how to word it strongly enough. To say the experience is as though the soul were continually being wrested from the body would be insufficient, for it would make you think somebody else is taking away the life, whereas here it is the soul itself that tears itself in pieces. The fact is that I don’t know how to give a sufficiently powerful description of that interior fire and that despair, coming in addition to such extreme torments and pains. I didn’t see who inflicted them on me, but, as it seemed to me, I felt myself burning and crumbling; and I repeat the worst was that interior fire and despair.
“Being in such an unwholesome place, so unable to hope for any consolation, I found it impossible either to sit down or to lie down, nor was there any room, even though they put me in this kind of hole made in the wall. Those walls, which were terrifying to see, closed in on themselves and suffocated everything. There was no light, but all was enveloped in the blackest darkness. I don’t understand how this could be, that everything painful to see was visible.”

[Source: The Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila, Volume 1, Chapter 32: paragraphs: 1,2,3. Published by Institute of Carmelite Studies Publications, Washington, D.C.]

Just so you know “Our Lady of the Roses” is an apparition of Mother Mary

This argument is based on the idea of an immortal soul, why would God grant the wicked eternal life and perpetuate the existence of evil when nobody can exist apart from the will of God?

The argument does also not consider that many people do not reject God willfully or believe in other Gods, very few Japanese are Christians e.g., most of us here were no Christians if we were born in Japan. Will they get a second chance?

Sven,

My OP evolved during our conversations. I believe God saves some out of the Lake Of Fire. Moreover, I don’t see God as a destroyer of life. Those in hell don’t want God. They hate Him. Hell is self-perpetuating.

This is your personal philosophy without biblical foundation. I think the bible is pretty clear, either all or only a few are saved - there is no way in between - if only a few are saved, annihilationism is still more reasonable and biblical as the everlasting existence of hell and evil.

I gave the Biblical foundation in the thread. Prove it wrong and I’ll change my mind. In the new creation when everything reaches it’s consummation there will be perfect love and perfect justice.

Perfect love and perfect justice are eternal

It’s the nature of perfect love and justice to protect

If there’s no evil there’s nothing to protect from

Evil must last forever in hell.

God is all in all in the new creation. The lake of fire isn’t part of the new heaven and earth.

Evil lasts forever because the gates are never closed and the invitation goes out to those in the Lake Of Fire forever.

The wedding banquet invitiation goes out to all but you have to be thirsty to drink. You have to have the desire. And as the banquet parable tells us ~~ many are called but few are chosen