God’s protecting His children in heaven from the evil in hell. They hate God and don’t want Him. They are separated from His love. There is no contradiction in that. God has a holy hatred. If God is love then He must hate those who would try to violently harm the objects of His love. Love protects against evil. He invites them with common grace. Common grace isn’t the same as the love of protection. In a different sense of love (common grace), I can “love” Adolf Hitler in having an inclination for His salvation but yet hate His character and actions. It’s a paradox to love and hate. For God’s children all hatred is removed. What do you think?
I’m talking about the new creation where all is consummated and there is perfect love and justice.
Separated from His protecting love and redeeming grace
This is the common grace I’m referring to. We are to do good to all ESPECIALLY of them who believe. But on judgment day God’s enemies hearts are separated from all grace and love. They are invited by God’s common grace and some receive redeeming grace.
In Romans Paul is writing to the Christians in Rome saying that Christ died for us while we were ungodly. He’s referring to those that are redeemed with saving grace. Indeed all the children of God who will be saved in the new heaven and earth (the whole world). The lake of fire isn’t part of that.
Does that help or did I mess up?
No He didn’t but we don’t exist in the new creation yet where there is perfect love and justice.
I don’t see how. Here’s the scripture on agape:
How do you see that?
God is also light and in Him the is no darkness at all. If God is love then He must hate evil. Love protects against Adolf Hitler for example. There is a time and season for everything, as it says in Ecc.
Rebellion does exclude from love but only in the new heavens and earth. That’s when there is separation. There’s a time and season for everything.
I say that because in the new creation we enter into perfect love and justice.
When we enter into the perfect creation there is perfect love and justice. Perfect love always protects. That’s why it’s in the new creation. God has a holy hatred against those in the lake of fire when He judges:
Leviticus 20:23 - “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.”
Leviticus 26:30 - “And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.”
Deuteronomy 32:19 - “And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.”
Psalm 5:5 - “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”
Psalm 5:6 - “Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”
Psalm 10:3 - “For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.”
Psalm 11:5 - “The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.”
Psalm 53:5 - “There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.”
Psalm 73:20 - “As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.”
Psalm 78:59 - “When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:”
Psalm 106:40 - “Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.”
Proverbs 6:16-19 - “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
Proverbs 22:14 - “The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.”
Lamentations 2:6 - “And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.”
Hosea 9:15 - “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.”
Zechariah 11:8 - “Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me.”
Malachi 1:3 - “And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”
Romans 9:13 - “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”
The passion removes hatred. In the Catechism of Thomas Aquinas (the theological Doctor and father of Catholicism) he talks about the atonement. Here’s what he says:
The debt of punishment which we incur because God’s justice demands that whoever sins should be punished. But Christ by His Passion delivered us from this punishment which He bore Himself: “He bore our sins in His body” - 1 Peter 2:24 (i.e., the punishment due to our sins). For His passion was so efficacious that it suffices to atone for all the sins of the whole world. For this reason when a man is baptized he is released from all his sins. The more a man conforms to the Passion of Christ, the more is he pardoned and the more grace he merits.
Christ by His Passion opened the gates and recalled the exiles to the kingdom. For when Christ’s side was pierced, the gates of Paradise were opened, and by the shedding of His blood the stain of sin was wiped away, God was appeased, man’s weakness was removed, His punishment was expiated, and the exiles were called back to the kingdom.
This is removed by Christ’s Passion, for Christ by His Passion poured out His blood as a laver in which sinners are cleansed. “He hath washed us from our sins in His own blood”. Now, the soul is cleansed by Christ’s blood in Baptism, which from Christ’s blood derives the power of regeneration. Consequently, when a man defiles himself with sin, he does an injury to Christ.
For just as a carnal man loves carnal beauty, so does God love spiritual beauty, which is that of the soul. When, therefore, the soul is defiled by sin, God is offended and the sinner becomes an object of His hatred. But Christ’s passion removes this, because He atoned to God the Father for sin.
I’m not a troll I’m just trying to understand and discuss these issues. If I contradict myself then I’m wrong. It happens all the time. If you think I’m a troll then stop arguing with me.
The Bible says love always protects. This obviously perfect love. Things are not perfect until we get to the new creation. That’s where I’m getting it from. Do you think perfect justice protects?
But things aren’t perfect right now. We have to wait until God restores all things and for all accounts to be settled. It hasn’t happened yet. I think what we are seeing here is the problem of evil. I have something I wrote on that. Would you like to see it?
It was an act of love. Removing hatred is an act of love. Don’t you think?
okay qaz, lets forget it.
I see the point qaz. If perfect love and perfect justice always protect from evil then why doesn’t God protect us from evil on earth?
The answer is that God has a holy hatred. When we enter into the perfect state of perfect love and perfect justice in the new creation all His holy hatred is removed completely. We enter into that perfect state. We will be protected under His wings from evil forever and ever.
Thomas Aquinas:
There won’t be any evil - all enemies will be conquered, and every tongue will confess Christ is Lord.
What am I missing?
Hey Dave,
Every knee and mouth in heaven and earth and those saints resurrected under the earth. “All mankind” will worship God in the new creation. Those in the lake of fire aren’t included in “all mankind”. “All things” are made new in the new creation. Those outside aren’t God’s children as it tells us in Rev. and Isaiah. The new heaven and earth is the whole world. Also Dave if there’s no evil there’s no perfect love and justice because perfect love and perfect justice always protect from evil. If evil disappears there’s no need for protection and no need for love and justice. Remember that God is across time and experiences all things as being “present” in His “now”. He’s the beginning and the end. Like Christ was slain 2000 years ago yet He was slain from the foundation of the world.
In the new creation where there will be perfect love and justice “All Things” are made new. “All things” is a reference to the heavens and earth. After all that’s what the merism “heavens and earth” means. The lake of fire isn’t included in the “all things” made new
The Lake of Fire is SEPRATE. In the new heaven and earth Christ is “all in all” All flesh will worship Christ there. Those that are in heaven and earth and those saints that are resurrected from under the earth. All flesh. These are God’s children. But not those who are in the lake of fire:
As we can see, those in the Lake of fire aren’t included in “all mankind” or the new heavens and earth.
Sorry Mike I don’t put much store in other peoples ravings or imaginings. I tend to stick to what the Bible teaches though of course there is quite enough raving and imagining going on there too if you read some commentaries. Have you ever read Johnathon Edwards “Sinners in the hands of an angry God” now there is some raving for you! Cheers Chris