The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is Jesus the Everlasting Father?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

In most Bibles we read in Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The seems rather odd, especially when we consider that Jesus Himself in His prayer, called the Father “the only true God” (John 17:3). The verse as given above seems to harmonize only with Modalism—the view that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This view is espoused by the United Pentecostal Church, and by the various “Apostolic” churches. If we are going to accept this verse as true, it seems we will have to accept Modalist theology.

However, the above form of the verse originates from the Masoretic text of the Jews, from the 7th to 10th centuries.

The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek is a much older text. Here is how Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton translated the verse from the Septuagint in 1851:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

#2

The way I see it, IF trinitarianism is true which I personally have my own opinions, only modalism could be true.

For one otherwise prayer from Christ to God makes no sense. For two how would the son not know the hour of His return but the Father does. And for three if all of God died on the cross how did He raise Himself if He was fully dead.

Theres just too many distinctions Christ makes between Himself and the father for me,personally, to take trinitarianism at its face value.

#3

You are right about the distinctions made between Jesus and His Father. And as you indicated, He prayed to the Father as to another person.

However, Trinitarianism and Modalism are not at all similar. With the beliefs you’ve expressed you could conscientiously be a Trinitarian. Trinitarians believe that God consists of three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who though distinct, are in perfect harmony. Modalists, on the other hand believe God is ONE Person, who sometimes shows Himself as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. Modalists compare it to an actor who wears three different masks.

My personal position is neither that of Modalism, nor Trinitarianism.

Jesus, in His prayer, addressed His Father as “The only true God” (John 17:3), and yet Jesus is “God” (John 1:1) in the sense of being divine, since He is the Son of God. When we beget an offspring, it is “man” and human. When God begets an offspring it is “God” and divine.

#4

I don’t ascribe to any trinitarianism theory. God cannot die, therefor Christ is not the God. Divine, but not God. I was simply theoretically proposing things.

I believe Christ is the image of the invisible God. As you’ve stated in other posts “one in purpose and likeness, not one in essence”

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#5

He is one in essence since he shares the same essence with the Father, namely divine essence—just as you and I are one in essence, since we share human essence. Yet, just as you and I are two different individuals, the Father and the Son are two different Individuals.

#6

What I really meant as essence is that they arent the same being. He is like God in many ways, but unlike God in some (i.e. being able to Die)

Thus the o.t. “there is none like Him [God]” still technically applies.

#7

The way I see it, Abraham was the Father of Israel, born in the Holy Spirit of God; being born again through Jesus.

#8

Thanks for the explanation. I thought that’s what you may have meant. Right. They are not the same divine Person.

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