The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is The God Of Jonathan Edwards Egotistical?

Many people think that the God of Jonathan Edwards’ Calvinism is egotistical. But if we take into consideration the above passage we can see that the definition the Bible gives to arrogance that God isn’t egotistical. Being egotistical is having a false and inflated view of oneself. And yes psychology agrees with this.

God is the greatest being in existence and He thinks of Himself as such. If God is all-knowing and is the most glorious being in existence then He knows He is the greatest and most glorious being. God doesn’t have a false and inflated view of Himself. He doesn’t think of Himself more highly than He ought to. His loving and thinking of Himself is true and accurate. Again, He is the most glorious and perfect being there is. People always try to bring God down on their level. Granted, there are ways we are like God but there are also ways we are not like God. There is a Creator creature distinction. For example: God is infinitely beautiful, all-knowing, self-sufficient, all-powerful, infinite in wisdom, morally pure, etc. while we are none of these. If we were to try to be like God in every way it would lead to grandiose megalomania. But we aren’t God. God’s loving and thinking of Himself is in direct proportion to who He is - the most glorious and greatest of all beings. Therefore, He’s not egotistical. The Bible tells us that Jesus worshipped the Father. It also tells us that Jesus is God.

Jesus is God

Father is God

Jesus worships Father

God worships God

Since Edwards’/Calvin’s notion of God is not on this point any different than Arm or Kath notions of God (whether Protestant or Catholic), then obviously this is not what non-Calvs are complaining about, duh.

It is however normal for Calvs to sidestep what is actually being complained about in the charge of egotism, and to pretend that they’re only saying what everyone else already agrees with (thus they either act confused about why anyone would complain about what everyone already agrees with, or they counter-charge non-Calvs with not believing what everyone already agrees with.)

The problem comes in when Calvs try to appeal to this as an explanation for God choosing to ensure ultimate injustice happens by creating and supporting creatures which by God’s authoritative choice God never even intends to empower and lead to do righteousness, who thus can only do unrighteousness.

Since that would normally be regarded the height of injustice, Calvs attempt to explain this as being instead so that God can be sure someone exists for Him to oppose with His justice. And so they have God acting utterly and fundamentally against the well-being of other persons in order to promote Himself in some fashion. That this promotion is totally useless to God, since God has no (or should have no) need to bloody his sword to make his justice shine brighter (so to speak) in his own estimation, only makes the explanation worse; since now God is creating creatures to torment and kill forever in order to impress other creatures who, on this theory, would not be able to properly appreciate the glory of God without other creatures being sacrificed by God to hell.

None of which is good psychology, incidentally. Though it does fit the observation that “People always try to bring God down on their level”: creating the worst possible unending injustice is what some people think of as justice, so that’s what they think they need to see God doing in order to appreciate Him better. So, they use that as an explanation for why (they think) God intentionally chooses not to save some sinners from sin even though they realize He could successfully save all sinners from sin if He ever intended to do so.

The problem isn’t the egotism of God. It’s the dangerous egotism of the people who come up with this particular theory which they’re projecting onto God: this is what they would do to other people to make themselves feel they have more self-worth.

But God has no self-worth problems prompting Him to sacrifice creatures, much less any rational creatures whom He gives rational spirits, for the sake of His own glory. On the contrary, God sacrifices Himself for the sake of all creatures (and even for all creatures to exist at all): the trinitarian God is totally self-giving.

Any punishment dealt out by God must thus be consonant with God’s own intrinsic trinitarian reality of justice fulfilling love.

Or putting it another way, Jesus’ way (GosJohn 5:19-30): the purpose of the judgment by the Son, and the Son’s resurrection of those who still do evil things into eonian crisis, is so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father, with a term for ‘honor’ that means to positively and properly value. Those who do thus honor the Son receive eonian life and come out of the death into life.

It is expressly on this principle, of rebels coming to properly honor the Father and the Son, that Christ declares His judgment is just. Any theory of judgment resulting in rational creatures never coming to properly honor God, must on Jesus’ own explicit terms involve attributing unjust judgment to God or an impotent failure of God’s judgment.

Putting yet another way: any theory where God refuses to lead those persons who don’t properly value God to properly value God, runs completely against what you’re saying (or copy-pasting from Calv sources) in your post here, Cole. God would be acting to make sure various rational creatures never can and never do properly recognize and value Him as the most glorious and greatest of all beings.

Only one version of punishment fits what you wrote: a punishment of persons already empowered by God to do justice, but who are themselves choosing not to do justice yet even though they could, with the successful goal of leading them to do justice instead – including to properly value God (which, insisting on injustice, they aren’t doing yet).

Anything less than that goal and that result, involves God voiding and acting finally against God’s own valuation of Himself. The Son would be choosing that some rational creatures never properly honor the Father; the Father would be choosing that some rational creatures never properly honor the Son. The Father and the Son would be choosing to permanently and finally dishonor each other, by the authoritative proxy of creatures finally dishonoring each other. Which, not-incidentally, would tend to involve the Father and the Son egotistically promoting themselves over-against one another.

It’s a great thing, then, that God truly is not egotistical. :slight_smile:

Jason,

I usually don’t respond to people who are mean to me but I’ll do that here. I’m not copying and pasting these things. I’m writing them myself in my own words. Also, I like a lot of what you and Cindy say about justice. I’ve also started reading “Hell And Eternity” which is a universalist book and I like the idea of God’s fires being purifying as well. I still hold to the fact that God saves some by grace through faith in this lifetime. Others He saves through the fires. Just as creation will be restored through fire. :smiley:

I’m actually trying to insulate you from the criticism I’m giving to Calv teachers on these topics, Cole: the ones who take an authoritative stance on such topics and try to instruct other people on such topics. That’s because I don’t want to criticize you.

If you’re taking personal responsibility for your stances, then great! – but that means taking personal responsibility for the beliefs you’re trying to teach other people, and that means cogently working through criticisms, either making adjustments while keeping the belief you’re representing so far as possible, or self-critically checking your logical math and then defending your position.

Jumping around from position to position is not what a responsible teacher of other people does. Again, I’m not trying to be mean to you in saying that; I’m only trying to explain why no one who knows you here has so far accepted you personally as a responsible teacher of Calvinism.

Which you ought to be grateful about, as there are members here who hate Calvinism and thus also Calvinist teachers responsible for promoting Calvinism with the passion of a thousand burning suns, having suffered emotional torture from Calvinism in their lives. My critiques have been very light compared to what they would do if they took you seriously as a teacher of Calvinism.

A nifty turn of phrase, JP!

Wish I could take credit for it; I first heard it from a fellow-geeky friend of mine many years ago (whom I hope in God to meet again one day in the world to come), but I don’t think she originated it, just heard it in the trope-o-sphere before I did.

As far as I can tell, in modern English parlance it goes back to the sitcom Cheers, probably as a reference to Oppenheimer quoting the “I am Death the Destroyer of Worlds” verse from the Bhagadvita (which I am sure I’m mis-spelling. :wink: )

Originally it was meant as a compliment in religious awe: if a thousand suns were to explode, that might resemble the glory of the Mighty One. Now it’s used as a somewhat humorously serious exaggeration about passionate hatred (via the sitcom application).

Under the circumstances it seemed appropriate. :slight_smile: