The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is the Valley of Corpses/Ashes in Jeremiah 31:40 "Gehenna"?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I watched a tentmaker video recently in which Gary Amirault claims that in Jeremiah 31:40, there is a prophesy that Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) will one day be holy unto the Lord.

I am personally convinced of universalism for all sorts of reasons, but it struck me that, if true, this is a really strong line of argument - certainly as a previous ECT believer it would at least give me pause to reassess the situation. For all the verses that are difficult, and open to interpretation, if we have a passage that says that the physical place that Jesus is referring to when He says “Gehenna” will one day be redeemed, that’s pretty strong!

I was disappointed then to feel like Gary wasn’t being quite as fair as I’d hoped. It doesn’t specifically say “valley of Hinnom”, but rather “valley of dead bodies and ashes.”

Nevertheless, I’ve never come across such a valley other than Tophet in the OT. But given that Jeremiah uses the term Tophet/Valley of the son of Hinnom elsewhere, is it pretty conclusive that they are the same place? Or, is any Biblical geographer able to confirm that the location described is the same as the VotSoH? Are the two clearly identified as the same elsewhere in scripture, or is there an argument to say they’re different?

#2

Let me open up the answers with one from the Protestant site - Got Questions: Question: “What is Gehenna?”. Then i’ll let the unversalists here, comment on the definition and answer your question. Let me quote in part from their answer:

#3

Actually that is a quote that Randy quoted. :slight_smile:

I don’t think so. Who was Jesus talking to, what words did He actually use, upon what occasion, for what purpose? Answering those questions will keep us closer to the meaning.

#4

I would agree with this by adding this qualifier… the “hell” Jesus was referring to was that which was “about to” (<μέλλω> mellō) come upon “this generation” i.e., Jesus’ contemporaries, in the conflagrations of AD70 when Jerusalem and in particular the Temple became a ‘lake of fire’. NOTHING of the old covenant age survived the event i.e., there was nothing of the OC régime that would survive into the coming new age of righteousness.

IOW… “HELL” was an historic EVENT not a continuing post-mortem condition; at least not from the pantelist perspective. :sunglasses:

#5

I also see these passages as speaking from an earthly perspective. Places such as the one in Jeremiah can be used to describe any land that is consumed with sin, ravaged and made desolate through war, e.g. inner cities, Hiroshima. All battlefields are pure hell or “lakes of fire.”

#6

I realise that Jesus was using Gehenna figuratively, i.e. He did not intend to say that it is better to be without an eye than cast into a specific physical valley. But I still think that if the place of shame and destruction known from Jewish history is what He uses as a metaphor, then the prophecy that the physical valley will one day be redeemed is a strong piece of supporting evidence that the spiritual state of destruction will also end in redemption. Hence, it’s not really a question about Jesus’s use of Gehenna, but whether or not we can be confident that the place referred to in Jeremiah 31:40 is the same as the place referred to in Jeremiah 7:32.

#7

There are only two valleys wrapping around Jerusalem, and Gehenna is the one that wraps around 3/4 of it. The other one (the name of which I forget at the moment) was never described that way in Jerusalem destruction imagery; and Jer 31 specifically includes Jerusalem destruction imagery.

There is no good reason to suppose Jeremiah meant the other less famous valley will be holy to the Lord someday. All the evidence is in favor of the valley of Hinnom (lamentation), i.e. Gehenna.

Besides, that’s hardly the most striking restoration language in the chapter, which features at least two post-mortem salvation ideas: the repentance and restoration of slain rebel Ephraim to mourning Rachel (who refuses to be comforted for her children have been slain); and Jesus’ ref, in GosJohn 6:45, to when He draws/drags all things toward Him in resurrection, citing Jer 31:34 where YHWH says that all people from the least to the greatest shall come to YHWH to be taught by YHWH, even those who hadn’t yet repented before then, “for I will forgive their injustice, and their sin I will remember no more.” Consequently Jesus isn’t talking in John 6 about raising people who will never be given to Him, but about raising people who have not come to Him yet: but they will, and will be saved, from the least to the greatest.

#8

randylkemp wrote:Jesus used Gehenna as an illustration of hell.
Actually that is a quote that Randy quoted. :slight_smile:

I don’t think so. Who was Jesus talking to, what words did He actually use, upon what occasion, for what purpose? Answering those questions will keep us closer to the meaning.

It means “destruction” as believing it means hell can only work if you import your presuppositions about hell since there is nothing in the text to support that idea.

#9

I agree Steve!

#11

Qaz… I’m a pantelist; most prêterists I know believe “in postmortem punishment” – most in ECT and to a lesser degree annihilationism. Either way, both hold an understanding that views a postmortem calamity being in store for the bulk of humanity… standard majority evangelicalism.

I don’t discount some possible degree of postmortem “reckoning” – I just don’t see such in terms of (from what I’ve seen) the Universalists’ use (as they seem to understand it) of this being ‘the lake of fire’. Most prêterists who have come to understand ‘gehenna’ in terms of the DoJ have simply exchanged “Hell Mk I” (gehenna) for “Hell Mk II” (lake of fire). As a pantelist I view these as one and the same, i.e., the AD70 DoJ.

Reading the context… it seems to be prophesying restoration (grace) where there had previously been ruin (grave).

#12

Thanks folks (particularly Jason). I realise there might be stronger verses in Jeremiah that support UR, but three’so something about the ultimate fate of Gehenna I find particularly powerful.

I suppose it will be different discoveries that resonate with different people. Personally, the point at which I moved from a sceptical curiosity to an “I believe this!” position was looking at the feast day typology. Some people rubbish types and shadows, but when i learnt about the three feast days, something clicked. It strikes me that learning about the redemption of the Valley of Hinnom might be that moment for others. It’s worth exploring every avenue!

#13

Feast and Temple / tabernacle connections, including the Jubilee laws, are an under-represented study.