The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is there any time that Joy is appropriate?

Practices Christian Living
#1

I’m not being too facetious - it’s my feeling that we dishonor God to the extent we refuse the good things He provides. I would include merriment, joy, dancing, food, sex, festivals and other things that gladden the heart.
I don’t believe the body is ‘bad’ just for feeling ‘good’. I don’t believe people are ‘bad’ just because they feel good. I am not talking about excesses or sinful behavior.

But with a suffering world around us - which we all know about and respond to as we are able - is it wrong to enjoy those good things? Or is it wrong to NOT enjoy them?

Is there a time, a season, for gladness in this sinful world?

#2

Well - we both know Luther’s answer Dave :slight_smile:

#3

Yes, I know his - what’s yours? :smiley:

#4

To everything there is a season

Weep with those who weep - rejoice with those who rejoice

God created the world and called it very good

On the whole it is the pleasure haters who have become grossly unjust

#5

I have been quoting Jack much too often lately, but hey, the man did have a lot to say! :smiley:

#6

With you 100% Dave. It’s a sin, a crime and a crying shame not to enjoy the good things God has made. There is far too much gloom and far too little joy in the world, and if the Church has any culpability in that - which she undoubtedly has - then shame on her.

As someone who is prone to melancholia, and often feels oppressed by the weight of the suffering I see around me, I need joy and laughter in my life.

Cheers

Johnny

#7

Yes, there is definitely time to rejoice! There are sorrowful things in the world, and there are joyful things in the world. I think it would be a shame to let the sorrow kill the joy. Even in the sorrow, there is joy knowing that God will take that sorrow and turn it into gladness.

Paul tells us to: Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. (Rom 12:15)

So …

“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” :smiley:

Sonia

#8

This was a view held by the earliest ascetics and gnostics; that enjoyment of the flesh was unspiritual. It was carried forward in time by certain monastic orders and hermits, and also by some puritan groups. I don’t think you need to worry, Dave, I see little evidence of “severe self-discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence” presented here… :laughing:

#9

There are a few things that we should not do - and then there is everything else. Some (all? I don’t know)) ECF IMO went way too excessive in severe self-discipline - as witness the one (I could look it up, forgot his name) who bragged about having less flesh than a corpse! I’ve been reading John Climacus’s Ladder of Divine Ascent, and it is tough going, perhaps because I live in such an indulgent age.

George MacD always helps me out though, illustrating that our great hope is not without its cost:

Who sets himself not sternly to be good,
Is but a fool, who judgment of true things
Has none, however oft the claim renewed.
And he who thinks, in his great plenitude,
To right himself, and set his spirit free,
Without the might of higher communings,
Is foolish also–save he willed himself to be.

#10

The ECF lived in extraordinary times; particularly the apostolic fathers who experienced martyrdoms and persecutions so frequently. A reading of Ignatius, for me, is a treatise into his fall from sanity. He became morbid and obsessed with death. I think that dread of imminent death must play tricks with your mind. You prepare for the event physically, spiritually and psychologically, and sometimes the methods are contrary to each other. I believe this was the reason for Paul’s advice to Timothy: “Physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come” (1 Timothy 4:7). It is said that Timothy prepared himself to be consumed by lions; and Paul was warning Timothy about this obsession over death.

I cannot judge Ignatius, as I have not been put in the same situation; although my life was threatened on several occasions. I did experience real morbid fear. In my spirit I felt fine; but it was playing mental games with me, making me paranoid. Much of the extreme puritism was born out of a reaction to preparedness of death. When the persecution ended in the early church, the pendulum had swung the opposite way. Now there was excessive liberty and fearlessness. It is funny how our theology is so often dictated to by external events. We are truly a product of our environment.

#11

An interesting post, Stef.

#12

[size=150]Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice! (Phil. 4:4 AV)[/size]

Disciples of Christ should be the most joyful people on earth! They should enjoy the Lord and all the good things which God has provided.

Yet it is important to note the very next verse:

[size=130]Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Phil. 4:5)[/size]

I know that some modern translations use a different word from “moderation” but in looking up this word in Greek, I think “moderation” is legitimate. I’ve observed some Christians in trying to prove that they were the most joyful people in the world actually portrayed themselves as just plain silly. I think you know the type.

So in our rejoicing we should make it known to everyone that we don’t go “overboard”. We don’t lose our self-control. But we are most thankful for our Father and all the good things He has made available to us!

#13

I struggled with the topic for a long time, and in some ways, I still do. When we read the works of the flesh in Galatians, it almost seems like everything is a sin! Why, how does one define a pleasure seeker? I took my son to go snow tubing yesterday. Why did we do it? To have fun! But, is that pleasure seeking? I am a bit conflicted over what a Christian can and cannot enjoy. I think it is made more difficult in the times we live in. I truly believe we live in Sodom and Gomorrah. Pornography is just a click away, with much of the male population (70%+) enslaved to it. Even softer forms of pornography can be found in every day life without looking for it. TV, Billboards, Magazines, even ones not considered such, Facebook friend invites that are clearly designed to be provocative. You don’t have to look for this stuff, because it is on your door step! It is always lurking, because it is considered normal. I am very fearful for my son growing up in this generation, but even just as fearful for my daughter, as the new statistic shows that 30% of Christian women are addicted to pornography! That number has been climbing and climbing with the advent of the free internet material available. Can anyone even remotely suggest we are not as destitute as Sodom and Gomorrah? Most of the world is the same way, perhaps even worse!

We have drugs, alcohol everywhere. Not old enough? Oh, Uncle Tom will provide it to you. Food in the excess! We live in very bad times, with evil everywhere!

So, one does have to question, when am I crossing the line? I think the answer is pretty clear;

  1. Does the Bible specifically call it sin?

If not, then

  1. Does it have mastery over me?

That is generally how I deal with what is right…