The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is this Proof Texting? Is this Proof?

Theology
#1

Would you call this proof-texting?
If it is or isn’t proof-texting, is it accurate and is it proof (as far as one can prove something strictly from biblical texts)?

The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I’m not so sure this is proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.

  1. …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
  2. …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
  3. The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
  4. For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
  5. A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)

So, if you take those verses about God’s character, power, will, and the way He works, you can make certain statements about the structure of His creation. If all things are possible for Him, and He does all His pleasure, and it is His will that none perish but that all repent, then that would imply that He can get everyone saved and that He will definitely get everyone saved. It also means that He would build the creation to fully support and accomplish His will of getting everyone saved. In fact, He has to do this if the Bible is truly inspired by Him because if He did not, it would mean He lied (or humans recorded His words and nature incorrectly in the Bible).

Would you say this is proof if proof is strictly confined to the scriptures, that God will save everyone? Or would you say this is merely proof-texting and isn’t actual proof? (I’m not talking about proof outside of biblical texts–I know it’s not provable outside of them).

Thanks.

  • Brian
#2

“Proof-texting” has gotten a bad reputation. But what’s wrong with it? If texts are quoted in support of an understanding at which one has arrived by reading these very texts, his “proof-texting” is no more than sharing what he has discovered.

#3

Well, I think the big problem is that people take verses out of context and use them to support their belief but if the verse were understood properly in context it wouldn’t support their belief. So I always try to make sure the context also supports the belief. But I get what you’re saying and I appreciate it. I’m the same way as long as nothing underhanded is being done.

#4

Very good, Brian! You are right.

#5

I’d say, no, since the first three statements don’t take free will into consideration. Though if your OP verses # 4 & # 5 imply that free will doesn’t exist, then you have universalism. Yet the fact is while Love Omnipotent desires or wills that none perish (2 Pet.3:9), many do & will perish (e.g. Jn.3:16). Which leads to the questions, does God desire & is He able to & will He save those who have perished?

#6

Origin, I didn’t understand your statement as to whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with what I said.

Free will is taken into account. Unconditional love never forced someone’s will. But God knows our hearts so well that He knows exactly how to orchestrate events around us to get us to choose with our free will the option He wants us to choose. The Bible says He hardened Pharoah’s heart, and we assume He did this by how he was raised and what he caused to happen around him. Proverbs says, “A man chooses in his heart, but the Lord directs his steps.” So hell is basically designed differently for each person in order to break their pride so they’ll be open to God’s help of their own free will. At least that’s what near-death experiences show and its what the Bible implies, because every knee will now in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. They’re bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord of their own free will. It’s not being forced on them.

Does that make sense?

#7

Yet people still choose to resist His will & go to “hell”.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. (Mt.23:37)

Yes, it does.

#8

Right, people choose to resist God and end up in hell. They’re not choosing hell, per se, but simply ending up there.

However, I have a feeling that if anyone really understood what hell is like, they wouldn’t willingly choose it. The problem is that people don’t know what it’s like or they don’t believe in it or they just don’t care about it. To them, subconsciously, they’re upset at their dad and sent realize it and that upset is getting transferred to God.

In near-death experiences, Atheists are the only ones who seem to end up in a hell-like place, not of fire and demons, but rather a place that’s tailor-made to break them. And in every instance, when they’re resuscitated, they end up believing in Gos afterward and they seek Him. On the other hand, no matter what religion a person is (if any religion at all), as long as they’re not openly resisting God, they end up in heaven. That’s pretty interesting. I guess since Jesus and God are one, as long as a person accepts God, they’re accepting Jesus as well, to some degree, and don’t know it. I don’t think they get the salvation that drops their shame until they consciously accept Him, though. And that makes sense, I suppose, when we see Jesus say that a person can blaspheme Him and it will be forgiven him, but blaspheming the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven (because that means the person is rejecting salvation from God and God Himself, which means he can’t have something he refuses to take).

#10

Sure. Which part would you like elaborated?

#12

Well, I say “tailor made” because each near-death experience there is different. It seems to be exactly the scenario each person needs for their pride to break, and then they have no problem accepting God’s help.

One guy simply had to relive instances from his past where he hurt other people, but this time, he felt how he made them feel, and that broke him.

Another guy ended up getting physically torn to shreds by some very unsavory beings (demons I suppose). It’s different for each person. Either God creates the situation for them, or the person’s fearful heart creates the situation. I’m not sure which. Or maybe there’s another solution I haven’t thought of.

The people all say that in that place, there’s absolutely no sense or remembrance of God whatsoever, as if He doesn’t exist at all to them and never did–like separation from Him. I don’t actually think they’re fully separated from Him. That sounds appropriate since they (Atheists), of their own free will, didn’t even believe God existed (at least not consciously). One theory I have is that their free will is manifesting itself by completely blocking them out to God’s presence. It’s like God’s giving them what they want so they can experience it–like He’s letting them feel as if they’re separated from Him, which apparently can be pretty scary.

They also say there’s no concept of time there, as if it will go on forever and ever, which scares them to death (pun kind of intended). Psalm 6:5 says, “For in death, there is no remembrance of You (God)…” Sounds pretty accurate. It’s an interesting subject, but we can’t know for certain until we die, I suppose. Not that we’re going to hell to see for ourselves since we’re not Atheists, but we’ll likely know what happens in hell once we get to heaven, I’m guessing.